Longest Consist Behind a Starter Engine?

[Jumijo]

I've been running 6 frieght cars and a caboose behind my Lionel NYC Flyer 4-4-2 starter loco and tender and it seems to have no problem pulling them at the 60 power setting on my CW80 transformer. Any more power and the train moves too fast. It did momentarily slow down somewhat last night for the first time, but after pulling off 3 cars and a brief rest, it ran fine for over a half hour.

What is the maximum number of cars I can possibly hope to pull with this engine and what are the longest trains you've pulled with an inexpensive, starter type loco?

Jim

[canazar]

Jim,

Just to shine a little info your way regarding your question. The biggest factor in pulling model trains, is not the power of the engine or traction, its the quality of the cars your pulling. If you have plastic wheels and cheap axles with trucks, you might say pull 6 cars. if they are better quality, with good rolling wheels and axles, you could get 10 or 12. Example: I have a GP-60 Atrhen RTR engine. Previously, ti would only pull 8 cars before it would stall in a turn at the far end of my lay out. Since, then, I have ynaked out of service the old Bachman and TYCO cars and replaced them with Athern BB's , Roundhouse and Accurail kits (most with metal wheels now) and I pulled 15 car train last nite and it did not slow at all.

Its all in the rolling restinance of the cars. So wht does all this mean? Depending on car quality, your and everyone's elses resluts, may vary. [:)] Hope this gives you a bit of info.

Good luck. Best Regards [8D]
John K

[ben10ben]

I've pulled 27 behind one of my starter set 4-4-2s. This was a mixture of about 8 postwar cars, and the rest modern era cars with Delrin trucks, needlepoint axles, and fast angle wheels. I would not do this everday, though, because the engine really was not happy about doing this, even though it did pull them. The Delrin trucked cars have so little rolling resistance that you can pull a whole lot more of them than with just about anything else. I would estimate that 5 have about the same drawbar weight as a single postwar car when on a flat surface.

[ChiefEagles]

Well here are some engines pulling a MTH Dash 8 Dummy [very heavy as it has power trucks with gears but not motors nor electronics], 15 laoded hopper cars and one lighted caboose. Thought I would test it out and see how they did.

Old 2056


Pensy turbine


Polar Express [pulled them but had a time getting them started]


These old MPC CN UBoats [strapped together] use to pull 25 cars and a caboose on my old basement layout. Even up a steep grade.

[Jumijo]

27 cars! Ben, I've got to find out where to by some Delrin trucks! I had no idea those starter 4-4-2s could pull that many! That's a bit of a mind blower.

John, as a beginner, I appreciate the info. All my rolling stock (Lionel, MTH Rail King, IR) have metal wheels. The MTH and IR cars have metal trucks and needle point axles, but none are expensive, so they all probably have a fairly high rolling resistance.

Jim

[Jumijo]

Chief,

Great photos!

You say your Polar Express isn't that good of a puller? I watched one of those small Berkshires pull 23 cars on CTTs web site in the review section. I was impressed enough to want one! Link below:

http://www.trains.com/Content/Dynamic/Articles/000/000/004/614yknnu.asp

Jim

[ChiefEagles]

Full of coal [not plastic coal]???? and that dummy weighs about as much as the powered unit [heavy]. Now you want to see a puller, this K-Line is over powered. You have to weight it down to get the voltage up enough to make it smoke good. I think it would pull my house.


Would love to get it on a big long track with lots of cars to see just how many it would pull.

[Anonymous]

Nice pictures, I would think that smoker pulls on the wallet regarding smoke fluid. =)

[palallin]

I've pulled about 20 cars on a 4x8 042 oval with a single MPC U-boat (couldn't fit too many more on the loop!). My son's NYC 4-4-2 will pull at least a dozen (with some postwar roll-like-bricks) cars on and 027 oval. I haven't got enough track to stall either my Frisco Geep (one Pullmor w/ Magnetraction) or my MPC Berkshire on the 042 loop. I have an MPC single-motored Alco that will pull at least a dozen without complaint, and my son's dual-DC-motored Warbonnet set Alco will walk away with it's dummy and 5 passenger cars like nothing is behind it at all.

[Jumijo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ChiefEagles

Full of coal [not plastic coal]???? and that dummy weighs about as much as the powered unit [heavy]. . .

No, just box cars and gondolas. If your Berkshire is pulling 15 cars full of coal (real coal?) AND that heavy dummy engine, I'd say it's doing alright for itself.

Jim

[Anonymous]

If you count a Beep... 7 Atlas cars... if your not familiar with Atlas, they are very heavy!

[Jumijo]

My daughter wants a Beep. I was wondering what their pulling power was. Sounds like it's strong.

Jim

[Anonymous]

The beeps are VERy good pullers for there size. I think its mostly due to ther low gearing and there weight to size.

[flyingyankee616]

[^] Chief,I really like your pictures.

[choochin3]

I ran 40 MPC boxcars on O54 curves with my Lionel GP38.
It's the one that came in the Chessie Diesel Freight set.
That thing pulls like a mule![:D]

Cheers,
Carl T.

[brianel027]

I've never really put my Lionel NYC Flyer locos to any kind of pulling test. I find with normal running they'll pull 8-12 cars pretty comfortably. I'm sure since these are beginner locos, that's what Lionel figures this is how they will be used since a young kid will not likely have as many train cars as a seasoned adult operator. And that a kid's rolling stock will probably be lower end types of cars with plastic trucks.

I have found that having some heavier cars behind these NYC Flyer type steamers will help them to put out more smoke, but that's because you are putting more current to the track. I've run mine with a string of 6-8 short 2-bay hoppers with a load of rubber coal (from my self-built coal loader) and it pulls them just fine and puts out a nice plume of smoke too. Smoke out put can also be affected by the type of fluid too. Super Smoke works very nice, as does the Bachmann Smoke Fluid whic is also a better bargain price-wise than the Lionel. As is also the Crest Smoke Fluid which I also use in my Lionel locos.

Many falsely assume having die-cast trucks versus plastic trucks on rolling stock means less derailments because the cars are heavier due to the trucks. I've found this just isn't true. What makes the real difference on derailments is how the truck is mounted to the body. Many of the plastic truck type cars have trucks mounted with a solid or hollow rivel that leaves the truck loose to some degree with a lot of wobble. It's this wobble of the truck that causes derailments (along with the opening in the space of the knuckle coupler). The die-cast trucks tend to be a tighter fit as they are mounted with a screw.

I regularly pull trains with cheapie 8 inch MPC type cars at the lead followed by cars with die cast trucks with zero derailments. The KEY is remounting the plastic trucks to eliminate the wobble. Or filing/grinding out the opening space of couplers that need it.

There are some other points to be considered in addition to the ones others made above.

Cars with roller pickup assemblies such as operating cars or illuminated cars will not roll as freely due to the contacts on the wheel axles. So pulling a number of these cars will create more drag, especially with modern fast-angle wheels versus the postwar trucks where the wheels can turn freely from the axle.

The wheels on whatever roliing stock you are pulling need to be as free rolling as possible. On postwar Lionel cars that means lubing the wheel hole where it fits over the axle.

On the newer fast-angle wheel cars with Delrin plastic trucks, some of these are not as free rolling as one would thing because sometimes the plastic trucks push on the wheels too tightly. This can be due to several things, but what you need to do is gently bend the truck sides outward so that the wheels can turn freely.

Even with the spring or non-spring die cast trucks, if you notice squeeking coming from the cars, a dab of oil at the point of the fast-angle wheel point and the truck is in order. There have been some comments on corrosion on some of the older diecast spring K-Line trucks... I have found I need to lube these on ocassion. The MTH sprung die cast trucks seem to roll more poorly than the others and require lubrication.

Also consider, especially on newer traction tire locos, whether the traction tire has been adhered to the wheel or not. It seems the companies are now using some kind of glue to help hold them on. I find using Scotch 3M Carpet Tape really holds the traction tires on so you get no binding or slippage.

I pretty much buy nothing but lower end types of locomotives. I have many with the truck mounted DC can motors as well as postwar and MPC-era locos with the open frame AC pullmore motors. One things I've noticed is DC can motored trucks seldom run at the same exact speed. I've proved this by removing the trucks, wiring the pickups to the motors and just running several trucks by themselves on the track using DC current. My thinking is that two motorized trucks that are working at the same level will work better together than having one that isn't working as well... that there will be less growling of the motors especially on tight curves.

I have also found that cheaper locos with a body mounted motor seem to pull a little better once extra weight has been added. My nephew has an all plastic body 8700 Rock Island Docksider that I have added weight to and it'll pull a dozen cars with no problem or slippage. I also added a traction tire to this loco. I think we once had it pulling over 20 cars, but again that isn't an everyday thing. He just wanted to see what the little engine would pull. Same goes for my altered Lionel Industrial Switchers which I have added weight to, and also removed the traction tires for better electrical contact due to the short wheel base.

I also have a couple redone 8902 DC type Lionel can motored steamers. These have plastic shells, but with carefully added extra weight, I have found they will pull 10-12 cars with not too much trouble. They also get repainted with added details, lights, handrails, engineer figures, etc. (I find it amazing how even a low end starter locomotive can be made to look so much better by simply accentuating what is already there, and by adding a few select details)

Remember that many locos can pull more cars than you would actually want to do as a normal thing because the excessive weight will help shorten the life of the motor. On a single DC can motored engine, notice if the motor gets warm after a short period... if so, you are probably pulling too much with it. Although again with my experiementing, I've found some can motors just get warmer than others with no bearing on the load, so this may be more an issue of quality control at assembly. I had one motor that frequently warmed up before the other one did one the very same loco. This motor burned out some time ago, while the other motor is still working to this day.

I have experiemented with single motored locos of the truck mounted motor variety and with one truck mounted motor, they do not pull as well as the locos I've mentioned above. They just don't, even with weight added. The motors in these locos are the same DC can motors that are also in the starter Lionel steamers like the NYC Flyer type. The fact that these Lionel locos have die-cast shells helps give them more pulling power with the added balanced weight of the die-cast shell.

I've also noticed that with the K-Line lower end locos, that over the years the traction tires have been located all over the place. MPC locos seems to always have the traction tires on the same side of the motored truck. This also seems to be true with lower end Lionel diesels with dual DC can motored trucks. I've found that the locos run better on tight 027 curves with the traction tires located on the same side of a single motorized truck. There is less growling of the motors and not as much slow down of the loco. In cases where the grooved wheels are on different sides of the loco (and different axles too) I will only leave one traction tire on that truck. once again adhering it with Scotch 3M Carpet Tape.

Where truck mouted DC can motored diesels are derailing on curves and turnouts, I add a spring between the trame and the truck. This is especially true of nearly all K-Line MP-15's, Alcos and S-2s, but have also found it with some Lionel locos. Adding the spring also puts a little more pressure on the motored truck and I make sure the traction tire is on a front wheel of those trucks, since that's where the spring is exerting the most pressure.

The single DC can motored diesels I have have been made out of experiementation. I made a single motored K-Line Wabash Alco FA with some nominal weight added. It pulls 6-8 cars easily. More than that and it starts slowing down on the curves. I've motorized my dummy K-Line Budd Cars by removing one motor from the powered unit and putting it on a dummy unit. I do add some weight to these. Normally with the Budd Cars I run them alone or maybe with a couple additional passenger cars and it does just fine.

In the past I've never had loads of money to spend on trains, so I love messing around with what is affordable. I always have to pull things apart to see how they work, how they're made and then to brainstorm how can I make them better. And I almost always find affordable ways to make them look and run better, which for me is part of the fun. This is just some of what I've noticed over the years.

[Anonymous]

You seem to have plenty of good cars and engines.

You dont need to have $50 freight cars and $800 engines to have fun, not that there is anything wrong with that.

I would begin adding indvidual cars, look for K Line blow outs and any I dustrial Rail cars still around, those are great cars and lower priced stock.

Also you can start buying engines on sale but becareful on ebay, you never know what you will actualy get.

You sound like you are ready to make a big leep in the hobby soon.

Sun is selling those K LIne Berks and or K 4s I read.

Marx Wm. Crokk I repaired and painted.



[:X] The crocuses will be peeking throw the snow soon.[:X]



[:X]Putting your tulips on your organ, how's that working for you jaabat?[:X] [:D]

[tmcc man]

Chief, is that a KLine Trainmaster? Does it have TMCC? That thing pours out smoke.

[Anonymous]

I still own my first Lionel loco and I'll admit it has recieved a (badly needed) overhaul, but when I first got it, I could pull up to 15-20 cars, depending on the grade, speed, and how clean the tracks were.

[thor]

QUOTE: Originally posted by brianel027



In the past I've never had loads of money to spend on trains, so I love messing around with what is affordable. I always have to pull things apart to see how they work, how they're made and then to brainstorm how can I make them better.

Me too!

BTW the only really valid way to determine a locos true pulling ability is a drawbar test using either a fishermans spring scale or a pulley wheel cord and weights.

Since I have nothing better to do today and a workshop table covered in various Lego models and test equipment from fixing the Atlantic yesterday, I think I'll build a test rig to determine the locos pulling power and the rolling resistance of my three coaches. Both before and after the lube job.

I've been playing around with syringes and cams trying to get a convincing sounding mechanically generated 'chuff!' Can't help wondering if this loco has other features built in that I simply can't activate with its cheesy controller, the two circuit boards inside the loco and tender look to be a bit more complicated than a simple bridge rectifier.

[FJ and G]

Hi Jim,

I've pulled 30 cars with my all of my starter locomotives, which include 3 Williams diesels and MTH consolidation, northern, GP38-2, SW-9, and F3. However, my 1 motor Lionel RS3 will be lucky to haul 3 cars without slipping unless weights are added. [:D]

[philo426]

I pull 15-20 cars with my Lionel RS-3 that had a second motor installed.Can run for hours with no comp-laint.Not bad for an entry-level engine!

[Jumijo]

I ran 15 freight cars behind a Lionel 4-4-2 a week or so ago. The locomotive didn't seem to struggle at all.

Jim

[Anonymous]

My 2055 can walk away with my 10 cars with 2 cabooses with out a complaint.

And thats with my 3 hopper cars and 2 gondolas filled with rocks from our backyard, too.

steel rails