New guy with some general questions...groan.... :)

[Anonymous]

Hi all!
Just found this fantastic forum and look forward to posting here when possible.
Here's the brief rundown:
When I was about 7 years old, my father and grandfather banished me from the basement of our Chicago home for several months leading up to Christmas. As the holiday approached I began to notice strange sounds coming from behind the closed door. Horn sounds. Clacking sounds...you get the drill!
Well, they had taken my dad's 1950's era Santa Fe Lionel O guage set and built an 8' x 8' table for it! Imagine my delight when I ran down the stairs that morning. I remember lots of fun with that set.
Fast forward about 27 years. I've got two little boys (4 & 2) who are already showing keen interest in trains (namely old Thomas...hope that's not a 4 letter word here!). I've still got the benchwork in my garage rafters, but, obviously, the set is much too valuable to let them play with. I've been picking up every cheap Goodwill HO train and bits of scenery I can for months now and (after I finish cleaning out the garage) anticipate setting up a fun, basic layout for "us" to play with.

Time to set aside my militaria collection (wife cheers) and do something a bit more inclusive.

Problem is, I have yet to see any layouts that incorporate this very square sized former O gauge table. Any ideas or can you point me to some plans?

Also, I just purchased a Life-Like Cannonball 88 set at Goodwill and after doing some quick searches on Google have yet to find one bit of info about it. It has a Santa Fe (dark blue and yellow lettering) loco and seems to be pristine. Came with some track and cars as well. I know LL is not a primo line in HO, but that's sort of the point. I'm just curious as to when LL may have released this set and what it might be worth today (buyer's remorse is already setting in!).

Anyhow, I bow to your obvious depths of knowledge and hope I can show off some pics of the layout and ecstatic kids in engineer's hats a few months down the line!
Thanks for a GREAT forum and site!

[FJ and G]

are you looking to set up an O or HO 8x8 layout? I believe CTT recently had an 8X8 Lionel showroom layout featured.

The reason many don't use 8x8 is the reach factor. About 30 inches is the max reach for most. That would dictate an island-style layout width of 60 inches max (5 feet) or 30 inches for a shelf.

However, you could put an access hatch in the center and pull it off (any width with these popup hatches using hinges or just lift-ups.

welcome to the forum; hope you visit us again

[brianel027]

BGH, Welcome... why look for HO sets for the boys to play with?? They're going to destroy those because HO is too small and doesn't hold up to the play.

I know dads who tried to interest young sons with HO trains... they might as well have not bought a train at all.

HO scale is wonderful, but it's not meant for little kids. Some of the HO guys might cringe when you mention Lionel type trains, but a lot of them also got their start in the hobby with a Lionel set before they moved on to HO when they got older.

There are pleny of lower end Lionel sets for sale on eBay that you wouldn't have to worry about your boys playing with. Even some of the new Lionel sets are not a bad deal at all. And there's a Lionel Thomas Set too. There's also a company called K-Line making Lionel compatable trains... you can find K-Line Train Sets on eBay (brand new in the box) for around $150.

And by the way (just my feelings here), those old Lionel trains would not be worth one red cent today had not our fathers from years ago allowed us to play with those trains when we were kids. What's more valuable: your sons or your old trains? My feelings are that just about no train is too valuable to not let the boys play with them with some adult supervision. These trains were meant to be played with.... they always were. If the founder of Lionel had realized what was going to come of the hobby, he could have saved a load of money by not putting any motors in any locomotive!!

Seriously, kdding aside, I'm sure once your boys have some Lionel's of their very own, those will be the trains they'll want to run. And K-Line also makes a darn nice looking Alco FA in the classic Santa Fe paint scheme that won't break the bank. As does MTH under their Rugged Rails line (with a shortened F3).

I'd steer clear of the HO stuff for your boys unless you just want to watch those trains get broken real fast.

If you look at nearly any old postwar era advertisement from LIonel, they all mention the bond that can be built between a father and a son with these trains. Lionel doesn't mention that in their ads anymore, but it's still true!!! Look at the memories you have BHG when your first train layout was being built... you and your boys can build the same memories and even better. And the great thing about this Lionel hobby is nearly any train you have that the boys might accidentally break, can probably be fixed... and probably once you learn, by yourself too!

Good luck and have fun!

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the reply.
I'm planning on building an HO layout. They built the table so it was hinged in the middle and folds in half (4 x 8 to a half) for easy storage. It is very sturdy and has lip @ 4" tall around the whole thing. I suppose I could take off the hinges, but I don't think I have 16' of length to run it down the side of my garage (it's a one car and not too big).
Hmmmm....

[Anonymous]

Ooops! Sorry, brianel027, I posted that before I saw your response!
Hmmm...those are some VERY interesting points indeed. I hadn't thought of that at all. Nevertheless, I won't be using Dad's old trains. I'd like to display/collect them for investment/sentiment purposes. It's a really beautiful set.
The main complaint I have now is twofold:
1) I'd like to do this for myself as much as them and am interested in some of the scale modelling and "extra space" that goes with the HO scale.
2) I've got a big old box of HO gear now!
Maybe I'll just do both....lay a sheet with an O oval down and use the table (in whatever configuration) for HO....? Give them something to "shoot for".
:)

[FJ and G]

BigGame,

Click in the top where it says "forums" on this page. If you go to the model railroader forum, you will find people there that have HO layouts. The folks on this are a bit prejudiced as we have O 3-rail or S classic.

Hope that helps.

If you have other questions about scenery and stuff later on, both forums can help.

[Anonymous]

Gotcha...I kind of noticed that after I posted...of course!
Thanks...don't worry...I'm not going over to the dark side or anything.
I just like trains!
:)

[brianel027]

In light of FJ & G's last comment: I'm not prejudiced against HO. My neighbor bought a starter HO set recently and I was very impressed with the quality of it - especially the new power pack with is a real improvement of the little black box with the red handle that once was standard fare with starter HO sets.

But even my neighbor now wishes he had looked around more for a used or beginner Lionel set. There's just an element of play value that is there with the Lionel sized trains that isn't there with the HO stuff. His son likes coming over and seeing my Lionel / K-Line trains much more than his HO ones.

Of course, if you pick up a new Lionel, K-Line or MTH catalog you're going to see that the 3-rail hobby has advanced substantially with electronics and with scale size and detail levels. Yes, some of the stuff is pricey - but there are also deals to be had if you are willing to look for them.

And one advantage of the 3-rail hobby especially for young boys, is that it isn't too small that you can't make many things yourself. Some of the old ideas like taking a tin can and turning it upside for an oil tank are just as good today as they were 50 years ago. Plus there are plenty of kids toys that can easily be adapted to a Lionel layout.

I found a drug store type quality crane at the Salvation Army Thrift Store... I ran some thread though it with some cranks at the front of the layout, and now it's an operating crane for my nephew's train layout. I took a frarm accessory conveyor belt trailer and with some minor modifications mounted it to a couple of Lionel elevated trestles, and now he has an operating conveyor belt with he can drop loads into gondolas with.

There's just a play element with the bigger trains that isn't there with the smaller ones. And if you are patient, clever and wise with your money, it can also be done on a budget too. Although the 3-rail hobby has been leaning towards the scale, adult market, there is a good selection of trains today that would be perfect for young boys and are also affordable. For example, K-Line is currently making a GP-9 for kids that lists for $50.00. They also have a line of Kids-0 train cars with a list of $20.00. Another company called RMT has a little switcher that's been a big hit for only $60.00. Willliams has a Centercab switcher with diecast trucks, solid construction and good running for about $100.00 list. And Lionel has a new Dockside switcher with details that will please YOU as an adult and rugged construction that will stand up to the boys playing with it. And this Dockside lists for $105.00 and can be found for less mailorder. Many of us hope Lionel will continue in this direction with some quality, budget priced offerings that please kids and adults at the very same time.

It's up to you BGH, but I'd say to go with a Lionel type layout for the boys right now at their current ages. Once their interest in trains grows, they (and you) may want to move to HO (as many hobbiests have done). But with the advances in the 3-rail hobby, you may find yourself wanting to stay with it, and just move up to better quality digital control type trains with more detail on them. Go to a train shop or a train show at take a look at the new Lionel, K-Line, Williams and MTH trains... you will be impressed!

[FJ and G]

Brien,

Everyone is predjudiced. For example I like vanilla ice cream better than chocolate.

I should have said "some of us" are prejudiced for O, because I include myself.

Agree w/you that O has much much more play value and is a better bonding experience than HO for many, because, simply, the trains are bigger and the track is easier to hook up and there are less stalls b/c of dirty track.

I used N, HO, S and O and IMO HO is the worst scale, unless one goes w/Marklin or On3, which really is HO.

HO doesn't have the "heft" of S and O and if you really want realistic sized trains and scenery, I'd go w/N.

I see G-scale somewhere in my future for outside; either that or I may use O scale outdoors w/N/S track.

Big Game,

As long as you are happy, as well as the kids (remember, it's for the kids too), go w/HO. It has some advantages, not the least being it's inexpensive and has a wide variety to choose from and you'll likely get a lot of play value in an 8x8.

Brien,

Sorry, didn't mean anything. We're still friends, right?

Dave

[brianel027]

Dave, terribly sorry ... what I said wasn't against you or anyone. I guess I would say though that we all have "preferences" which doesn't necessarily make us prejudiced against anything. Personal choices are one thing... general denouncements are another... It's like if someone said they hated Chinese food, before they had ever bothered to even taste any.

Yes my friend, I like you have a preference for vanilla over chocolate ice cream. And I personally have a preference for 3-rail over HO, at least for myself. And from years of doing train shows and talking with folks with kids, there is undoubtedly (in my mind) a definite advantage to doing a 3-rail layout, especially if you have kids that you want to get involved.

KIds idea of play is a little different that us adults idea (no puns intended!). Any of you who have kids and watch them run trains will know this.

But Dave, there were never any hard feelings. Didn't mean that as a slap on what you said. In fact, it was from watching friends HO trains and seeing them run so smoothly (without any extra electronics) that got me wondering about running my trains on DC current - which I now do with no regrets.

And in the past I've gotten some great ideas for my 3-rail trains from that famous magazine that caters pretty much to HO trains... Model Railroader!!

[ben10ben]

And to add to Brianel's list, K-line has two new engines in the low-end price range that suit both the scale modeler and the young child quite well. They've had out a 4 wheeled Plymouth diesel switcher(with smoke) for about a year now. It has a die-cast shell, very, very nice detail, and is very rugged, all for $100($70 mail order). Their newest catalog, which will be out next week, will have an 0-4-0 steam tank engine with the same level of detail and operating features promised as the Plymouth, for the same price. It will probably be a few months coming out, but should be very nice when it does.

Keep in mind that both of these are scale-sized engines with die-cast shells to add a lot of heft, and plenty of add-on details to satisfy even some of the most discriminating modelers. At the same time, they're extremely durable. The Plymouth(and most likely the 0-4-0 will be) are also geared low, which will keep them from flying off the table even at full power.

[FJ and G]

Brian,

Cool,

Ben

THe 8X8 layout BigGame Hunter is interested in would look esp. cool w/a -0-4-0 on the waterfront, with a lot of details. Either that or a K-line Shay and a timber scene w/switchbacks. WOuld have made me drool if I were a kid again; actually still does.

Big Game,

Don't overlook S scale. It perhaps is the perfect size and has many offerings.

[3railguy]

Biggamehunter, used Life Like HO isn't worth much on the secondary market. Even the stuff from the 70's. Mainly because it was cheaply made. Today's lifelike is better and high end lifelike costs more than low end 027. As others have said, HO is a bit futzy for kids. It's likely you will spend more time fixing and tweaking it than running it. Low end HO is know to have a one week life expantancy with kids.

You will find todays low end O27 engines are just as smooth running as mid range and high end HO engines for the same price. The O27 engines are much more durable. Probably the best value for kids is a $120 Williams GP-9. It is a brute. It will take some serious trashing before it breaks. It will run forever, pull stumps, and is smoother than snot on a log... A smooth running, reliable HO engine is $100 but with kids, it won't be long before the shell delapitates from the frame and detail is tore off.

You will find laying HO track so the trains run smoothly can be challenging if not frustrating compared to 027.

Kids like to run trains fast. If you guys want to really have some fun, try an 8 x 8 table with a loop of 054 track or 8 x 12 with 072. You can run trains fast on these curves and they won't derail. Lionel makes 072 track in their 027 line and it can be found at reasonable prices.

I'm not knocking HO. I collect HO as well as O gauge. I won't hesitate to let a child handle an 027 engine but will not let them handle my HO.

[Anonymous]

It's funny that you guys are saying this about HO stuff being so kid-unfriendly and so fragile to handle. I am building an O gauge layout now for the first time, and people always ask me if I had trains as a kid (I'm in my senior 30's as of now). Anyway, I always say "no" when asked that question. But really, the answer is "yes". I had an HO set that I was given when I was a kid, and someone put it together for me. I don't even count that as having been a set that I ever had since it lasted a grand total of about 1 week before mostly everything was broken. I can remember getting stuff for Christmas and having to take it all back to the hobby shop the next week because it was all either broken right out of the box, or very soon thereafter. Definitely led me away from trains for about 30 years.

[FJ and G]

Dan,

Agree reg. the HO, it was a very frustrating experience. I had AHM, Athern etc. The one set I did get together and enjoy, however, was the CB&Q Tyco figure 8 set with plastic girders. The colorful geep gave a nice growl. Also had a PC Plymouth switcher that could go like a bat out of you know what.

But my rusty Scout was much more fun to play with; esp watching the sparks shoot off the steel tracks.

[Back2Trains]

Just had to add my 2cents worth to this thread. I'm a 60 year old grandfather and I still have my Lionel set from 1950 (Golden Anniversary freight set) plus a lot of other postwar things that I have acquired within the last few years. I played hard with my trains, my kids played with them, now my grandkids play with them and perhaps in years to come my great grandkids will. Unless your Santa Fe set is totally pristine, it is one of hundreds or thousands out there, so don't be afraid to enjoy it. However I do supervise my grandchildren when they use my trains because I know firsthand how roughly kids can treat Lionel trains. My UP Alco had some serious brushes with death at my hands but even so it is still in nice condition which certainly is a tribute to Lionel quality. Plus the four year old thinks there is only 1 throttle position on a ZW: all the way to the rear.
Seriously, though, make it O gauge. It's far less fragile, a lot easier for the kids to handle and there are so many cool operating cars and accessories available.

[Anonymous]

Oh dear...and here I thought this would be easy. :)

I should have known that in a group of die-hards I would encounter not just the functional side of the hobby, but the philosophical as well!

I'm a little torn now...I'm going to have to think about this a little bit more. Obviously, the kids aren't going to care about scale or realism...maybe I'll lay down both and see what happens? That way we can all play at the same time...

Thanks for your very thoughtful input and consideration of this topic...frankly, I was unaware of the gulf between guages, but knowing that there are German collectors and US collectors from my militaria time, I appreciate where people are coming from. Ultimately, it is simply personal preference. In this case, there are definitely practical concerns as well, concerns I'm going to think long and hard about before I invest too much money either way.
Again...thanks so much!

[FJ and G]

Frank,

For play value, 3-rail can't be beat. There are tons of operating accessories that the other scales are deprived of. For kids fun, esp. boys, there's a pretty neat K-Line military set.

[3railguy]

Frank, can you tell us what your budget is?