Help planning wiring and building a prewar/postwar layout with tmcc control

[James Huff]

If my previous post was ion the wrong place, please forgive me. I'm in my 20's but Born in the wrong century, so I have to cope with using new computers and handheld computers with their annoying apps spellcheck to post on this great resource!

Anyway, I am planning to build a 0 gauge tubular track layout using nothing but prewar and postwar lionel equipment being controlled by train master command control. The track plan I chose was originally designed for s gauge in a 5x9 space, but I really like the amount of turnouts and the multilevel setup so here's a picture of the track plan i want to build with lionel 0 gauge tubular track sections. I may have to figure out a better way of uploading pictures for future reference so if you don't see any picture of a track plan i will try to upload the picture again in my next post. I would like to see if I can fit this track plan in 6x9 if possible. here's a list of most of the prewar and postwar equipment I want to use in the layout 

1  497 coaling station

1 icing station

1  364 lumber shed

1 362 barrel loader

1 394 signal tower

3 sc2 switch controllers

at least 12  022 turnouts

2  711 turnouts

054 curves

031 curves

072 curves if possible

2  47 double automatic gates

at least 6  153 signals 

1  450 overhead block signal

1 semaphore 

1  154 highway flasher

1. Radar tower

1 140 banjo signal

1  124 station

at least 4 70 lamps

1 main st/Broadway lamp

1  152 crossing gate

1  252 crossing gate with signal

 

1 275watt zw 

1 190watt kw

1 125watt lw

3 50w-75w transformers

at least 2 to 3 steam/Desiel locos with or without magnetraction smoke whistle/horn with single or dualpulmor motors pulling 4-7 prewar/postwar passenger or operating cars at one time 

now that I explained what equipment I want to operate I have lots of questions but here are a few untill next time I have more time to post

first are my zw kw lw enough power to run the listed equipment if no will my smaller transformers make up for the extra power I need to safely run the listed equipment

second i really want to control the entire layout with tmcc can I use my postwar transformers instead of the powerhouse transformers 

third what tmcc components will I need to control the entire layout with only prewar and postwar engines

and the last question for now untill I get the picture of the track plan I going to upload do I need to be concerned with power surges with tmcc running only prewar and postwar locos

i think my posted my previous post in the wrong forum And I think maybe its best to just start a new topic here so sorry in advance 

 

[James Huff]

[James Huff]

so the picture is exactly what I want the track plan to be except in o gauge tubular and maybe on a 6x9 or 6x10 to fit the larger o gauge curves accessories and transformers I need help wiring this layout for at least 2 maybe 3 train operation with tmcc 

[pennytrains]

Aboard!

[Flintlock76]

James Huff

I'm in my 20's but Born in the wrong century,

Hey, I'm 69 soon to be 70 and I KNOW I was born in the wrong century so I feel your pain!  The high-tech stuff makes my head hurt.  No, cancel that, it makes my HAIR hurt!  

That being said that's one great looking layout you've got planned.  If you're going to run pre and post-war stuff I'd say screw the TMCC and just go conventional, conventional's plenty of fun in its own right and a lot more hassle-free. 

However, others won't agree so you'll have to wait for them to sound off.

In the meantime welcome aboard!  You're adventure is just beginning! 

(By the way, you've picked the right time to get into pre-war, post-war, MPC and LTI Lionels.  Prices are coming down on a lot of it and there's some good deals to be had!)

[James Huff]

Flintlock76

 

 

That being said that's one great looking layout you've got planned.  If you're going to run pre and post-war stuff I'd say screw the TMCC and just go conventional, conventional's plenty of fun in its own right and a lot more hassle-free.

I plenty agree with you that conventional is lots of fun and its very simple if one runs a simple loop with a few sidings for Christmas or any time of the year! However, once you add accessories, lights, blocks, and a dozen switches into the mix, the complexity of the wiring, control over the trains and the rest of the layout, power distribution and safety naturally are greatly magnified. Some of the reasons i heard abot tmcc and I'm interested greatly about the tmcc control system are that you can program routes, have all your switches and accessories controlled directly from the cab1 remote and finer speed control over your conventional locos via the cab1 remote, without any mods to the locos themselves! I will need help with wiring and powering  my equipment safely that i going to be using on the layout and knowing what tmcc components i need and how to incorporate tmcc in the layout and learn how to use it to really enjoy running the layout safely!

[James Huff]

Flintlock76

 

(By the way, you've picked the right time to get into pre-war, post-war, MPC and LTI Lionels.  Prices are coming down on a lot of it and there's some good deals to be had!)

 

I totally agree with prices going down on prewar and postwar, not so much with the LTI stuff. The other day I paid 20 for a 2245 Texas special with box! It needs some work though like only running in forward and battery acid all over the frame and eunit. I did get the original d cell battery out and neutralized the acid with baking soda I will put more info on that repair and future repairs in a separate topic!

[Laurastom]

James, you have an ambitious vision for the layout. I hope you have fun building it.

You state that you want to control "equipment" using TMCC. Do you mean just the engines or all the equipment including turnouts, uncouplers, action accessories, etc? All is possible but not easily or inexpensively.

With TMCC (most likely Legacy) the only way to control pre and postwar engines is to vary the track power with the handheld. This requires a Powermaster or a ZW-L transformer. Controlling accessories is done with the Lionel Layout Control System, an add on to the Legacy system. Direct control of engines requires installing TMCC boards in each individual engine, a major undertaking for a fleet of engines. Ok for just two or three.

My layout has no physical controls. Every engine and every track item and accessory is operated by touching its icon on a track mimic plan on an iPad. This is Legacy plus LCS. I recommend you look at the Legacy and LCS pages on the Lionel website. Unfortunately many of the detailed LCS plans are not there because Lionel is in the process of updating the reference material. Lionel expects to have that material back up on the website by the end of the year.

[James Huff]

[quote user="Laurastom"

You state that you want to control "equipment" using TMCC. Do you mean just the engines or all the equipment including turnouts, uncouplers, action accessories, etc? All is possible but not easily or inexpensively.

With TMCC (most likely Legacy) the only way to control pre and postwar engines is to vary the track power with the handheld.

 

[/quote]

 

By equipment I mean everything all the switches the accessories and the trains powered by my postwar transformers but controlled by the cab 1 remote in 3 blocks the upper level is one block the sidings facing north are another block and the rest of the layout is the third block I read something that said I can use any transformer with the ability to provide constant 18v will work the problem is is 275w enough or would I have to phase the zw kw and lw transformers fro provide enough power for the layout

[James Huff]

Laurastom

 

With TMCC (most likely Legacy) the only way to control pre and postwar engines is to vary the track power with the handheld. This requires a Powermaster or a ZW-L transformer. Controlling accessories is done with the Lionel Layout Control System, an add on to the Legacy system. Direct control of engines requires installing TMCC boards in each individual engine, a major undertaking for a fleet of engines. Ok for just two or three.

My layout has no physical controls. Every engine and every track item and accessory is operated by touching its icon on a track mimic plan on an iPad. This is Legacy plus LCS.  

I am not interested in legacy or legacy plus. Legacy is way more expensive than its predecessor tmcc and as far as legacy plus goes, I hate the idea of using a phone or tablet to control the layout I rather have a physical remote with actual buttons for each function that's why I am interested in using tmcc legacy plus too modern

[Dave45681]

James Huff

 I plenty agree with you that conventional is lots of fun and its very simple if one runs a simple loop with a few sidings for Christmas or any time of the year! However, once you add accessories, lights, blocks, and a dozen switches into the mix, the complexity of the wiring, control over the trains and the rest of the layout, power distribution and safety naturally are greatly magnified. Some of the reasons i heard abot tmcc and I'm interested greatly about the tmcc control system are that you can program routes, have all your switches and accessories controlled directly from the cab1 remote and finer speed control over your conventional locos via the cab1 remote, without any mods to the locos themselves! I will need help with wiring and powering  my equipment safely that i going to be using on the layout and knowing what tmcc components i need and how to incorporate tmcc in the layout and learn how to use it to really enjoy running the layout safely!

I bolded the parts I'm going to address that I think maybe haven't been directly pointed out yet.

I think the assumption that the wiring will be simpler for controling via TMCC all of the conventional pre/post-war accessories/lights/blocks is incorrect. As Laurastom said, it can be done, but it's not necessarily easy to wire/build (or cheap to buy) all of the components to run all of the conventional equipment.

For any conventional accessory, you basically get to trade a physical toggle switch for an electronic one.  Example, there are TMCC control units for controlling turnouts or accessories (SC-1, SC-2, ASC units, possibly another type I am forgetting at the moment).  Each of these units requires the terminals of the device being controlled to be hooked up to them similar to the way a physical toggle switch would be.

So nothing is really "directly" commanded from the CAB-1 in this scenario, at least not for conventional accessories and/or engines.  (there were a few modern versions of accessories that had TMCC built in (which actually could be controlled entirely from the remote, less the need for power leads for hot and common at the accessory), but obviously not post-war ones, so this concept doesn't apply based on your declaration that you are only running pre and post war trains.)

You mention running 2-3 engines/trains simultaneously.  Do you have a good concept of how you want to do that on the shown track plan(and how the blocks would be broken down to do so?)?  I can see the obvious inner loop that could have a train running either in the oval or figure 8 by throwing the turnouts for the desired path, including lots of options for reversing direction using the switches to effect the 4 possible reverse loops in that area, but that's really only one train that can run in that area at one time. 

The rest of the layout with the large reverse loop (going through the tunnel in the lower right) and the passing siding near the top looks like it could be a separate block if you wanted to shuffle some cars around to accessories along those areas of the track.  I'm not sure where I see a chance to run a third train, but I may just not see it.  (I do admit I don't know where the turnout that is about 2 feet in from the left and one foot down from the top runs to.  it looks like it runs under the passing siding area, but we can't see what the route looks like after that turnout). 

As to the better control of the conventional engines, that may be true, but probably depends quite a bit on the controller you buy to vary the track power.  An original TMCC Power Master unit from circa 1996 would probably not produce as much of a discernible difference than using something more modern with a lot more speed steps, like a Track Power controller (TPC) unit.

Those components of course inter-twine with the block wiring discussion.

I will suggest that it's an ambitious thing to go in concept from "entirely conventional" to "entirely controlled via remote" in one major step, particularly for the large number of turnouts and accessories you want to be controlling. 

 

[James Huff]

[quote user="Dave45681"]

 

I think the assumption that the wiring will be simpler for controling via TMCC all of the conventional pre/post-war accessories/lights/blocks is incorrect. As Laurastom said, it can be done, but it's not necessarily easy to wire/build (or cheap to buy) all of the components to run all of the conventional equipment.

For any conventional accessory, you basically get to trade a physical toggle switch for an electronic one.  Example, there are TMCC control units for controlling turnouts or accessories (SC-1, SC-2, ASC units, possibly another type I am forgetting at the moment).  Each of these units requires the terminals of the device being controlled to be hooked up to them similar to the way a physical toggle switch would be. 

 

 

quote]

 

So what I meant to say there is that it may be more simple to control the layout via tmcc once I know what each component of tmcc does how it functions and how to use tmcc as a whole. I missed when proof reading that I forgot to delete  the word wiring in that sentence.(funny how one word or the abcense of one word changes the entire context of what someone is saying!) 

I still am interested in using tmcc, I just didnt know what tmcc components I needed for my specific needs to operate all the equipment I listed I want to use on the layout, let alone the best way to wire all the equipment properly and safely!

Dave, you mentioned some tmcc control units for controlling the switches and accessories which of those do I need and how many do I need of each to control all the switches, block sections, and the five major accessories I listed the coaling station, barrel loader, icing station, lumber shed, and radar tower? And I forgot operating track sections?

[James Huff]

[quote user="Dave45681"

As to the better control of the conventional engines, that may be true, but probably depends quite a bit on the controller you buy to vary the track power.  An original TMCC Power Master unit from circa 1996 would probably not produce as much of a discernible difference than using something more modern with a lot more speed steps, like a Track Power controller (TPC) unit.

Those components of course inter-twine with the block wiring discussion.

 

 

[/quote]

Dave you also mentioned that i will need a track power controller to vary the track power. Are there more than one type tpc products that handle more power? Would I need one for each block in the layout?