A Lionel 6413- trash or treasure?

[Leverettrailfan]

I've mentioned in the 'coffee pot' that I bought some things this past week. I present to you now, one of these items, being one of two which I'm currently trying my best to garner more information on. Both are 'junkers' at the moment, but I think there's some merit in fixing them up.
So, let's dig into the 6413. I've seen this car at the train store a few years now, each time I thought about it but always left it. This year I decided to jump on it, thinking that I might just be able to take a stab at repairing it. I figured that any car with the Allis-Chalmers frame is tough to find on the cheap, so if I wanted one, this car was my best shot. It's broken, make no mistake, but I think I can possibly mend it with patience, CA, and some sheet styrene.
Here's my dilema: I was researching online, knowing almost nothing about this car, and saw mentions that there's a common version which is BLUE, and a rare version which is TEAL. Well... let's have a look at my car, shall we?
The 'nice' side:

The 'less nice' side:

At first glance, I think we can all agree, that sure does look teal doesn't it?
But I can say with confidence, that this is NOT the color it left the factory looking like. The first hint is that you can see, where the cable ties used to be, that the plastic is a different hue:

See the blue line? Well, flip the car upside down and...


Anyone who's left a plastic toy in a window sill for a few years, or a sun lit room, knows about UV discoloration. It's a common problem with things like vintage computer cases and old lego bricks, exposure to UV light causes most polymers to degrade, yellowing and becoming more brittle are common defects that develop.
So there we go- case closed, it's not a rare car.
But that raises a question to me- what about the teal cars collectors are paying big bucks for? What do they look like? Did they come from the factory that way, or are some/all of them also just discolored blue?
That's not all, though. I know the informaton on the tandem associates website is mostly/completely derrived from an outdated guidebook, but it mentions that one of the traits of the teal car is that only one of the trucks has an operating coupler. This is not, however, a configuration that can't be found on a normal blue car, so it may not mean anything. What I can say, is that looking at my car, the truck with the missing coupler must have had a non-operating coupler, because the ends of the shanks are different widths and shapes. Note how the operating coupler has a thinner shank, which extends somewhat into the truck bolster. On the broken truck, the shank is wider and does not extend into the bolster.


One last piece of evidence I have to ponder over, is that while the car is clearly yellowed by UV light, the non-faded underside also doesn't appear to be the same shade as many of the cars I can see in pictures online.
So, with all that said, I'd like to ask what other people think. What variations are known to exist of this car presently? What variation do you think I have?
Lastly, should I restore this car? Circling back to UV discoloration, there is a known "cure", usually referred to as 'retrobrite'. Hydrogen peroxide (the higher concentration the better) has the power to reverse the yellowing of the plastic- immerse the discolored item in your peroxide, and let it sit IN THE SUN (a neccesary step), and gradually it will return the plastic to it's original appearence. This is a common practice used to fix yellowed plastic on vintage computers, legos, and video game consoles, so why not toy trains? The question is, am I affecting the value of the car negatively, positively, or not at all- I mean this both in respect to my car, and in general, what do toy train people think of correcting UV discoloration in their toy trains? Does retrobriting a piece "count" as having restored it? Does it decrease the value of the train? Will peroxide harm/attack any paints or lettering that Lionel and other makes used? I'd love to hear what others have to say.

As for this car's fate, my inclination right now is to carry on as planned- clean off the dust, figure out a doner car to give it a replacement solid coupler, and try to construct a 'patch' to fill the broken section of the frame. I am leaning towards retrobriting the car, but I won't be able to persue that at all until after I return, and I do want to hear the thoughts of other forum members!

-Ellie
(PS: the other car is an HO item, I think I'll make another post for it later)

[pennytrains]

That's not fading, it's tobacco residue.  Squirt a little bit of windex on a paper towel and try to wipe it off in a hard to see spot.  Your paper towel should turn brown if the ammonia in the windex does it's job.

The book I have, Standard Catalog of Lionel Trains 1945-1969, 2005 printing, lists 3 variations.

1. Unpainted blue body with AAR-type trucks with operating couplers.
2. Painted blue body with same AAR trucks/op couplers.
3. "Unpainted BLUE-GREEN body and only one operating coupler."

You havea dirty, heavily damaged, Type 3 6413.  Obviously not Like New ($600), Excellent ($400) or even Very Good ($300) but still, the remnants of a rare car!  

[Leverettrailfan]

Thanks for the info and advice Becky! I'm reasonably excited to know I have the "rare" version- it definitely wouldn't fetch the 'big bucks' if I tried to sell it, but it's fun to have something unusual. I'll try out the windex tomorrow (assuming I can find it), if that fails then I'll also try the peroxide, and see where it all takes me. I want to hold off repairing the broken parts of the car until after I have the car cleaned up and restored back to its original color, but once that's done maybe I can match some paint to the color of the car (to paint the repair 'patch' I need to make).
Regardless of what my car could or would be worth, it seems like at least online, a type III isn't always more than the price of a more common variant. When looking on the 'bay, just to see what 6413s had been going for there, I noticed two 6413s that had a solid coupler, which went for under $100- one without a load, one with the load but missing the original tie-down straps. Granted they still weren't anywhere near the price of mine  I didn't do the math exactly since it was one of multiple unmarked things I brought to the counter and asked for a collective price on, but I think it must've only cost me a couple bucks. Beat that!

-Ellie

[fifedog]

Restore that bad boy! This will be a fun project to watch. 

[philo426]

Interesting challenge to restore that car The tricky part is to get the paint to match .Might have to take it to a auto parts store for an exact paint match .

[Leverettrailfan]

Thanks for the encouragement Fife! Definitely boosts my motivation to see it through.
Philo, the paint will be tricky. My hope is I can find a spray paint that's close. It should already be obvious from a passing visual inspection that the car was repaired, but I'm feeling somewhat okay with the idea of having the paint not be a perfect match, just 'close enough'. We'll see, paint doesn't go on any time soon! I'll paint that bridge when I get to it 

-Ellie

[Flintlock76]

I'd give the car a good cleaning before I'd think about repainting it.  If the car's that scarce repainting would kill some of the collector value.  Of course if that doesn't matter to you you can do what you want.

Since Testor's paints are discontined here's a Tamiya chart.  You might find a pretty close match.

https://www.tamiyausa.com/blog/ts-paint-chips-tamiya-color-spray-paint/

[KRM]

Good car to place in the rail salvage yard on your layout. But that is as far as I would go.

[fifedog]

I concur; don't repaint, just fix. 

[Leverettrailfan]

Wayne, Fife, I should have worded things clearer- I'm not repainting the entire car. Since part of one side of the car (and a tiny bit of the deck) is missing, I need to scratch build a replacement 'patch' to occupy that empty space. I question how much structural stability the car would have if I don't, and I hate the look of that chunk of missing plastic. Since the sheet styrene I intend to use doesn't come in shades of postwar Lionel blue/aqua, it'll stick out like a sore thumb. I need to paint the repair job, so it blends in somewhat with the original plastic. I'm okay with it not being a seamless match, since that would be pretty difficult to achieve, and I don't want to try to hide the fact that it's been repaired. It just has to look 'close enough'.

KRM, most sane people wouldn't take things further than that. Unfortunately for me and my loved ones, at this point I must be considered "anything but sane".
The way I convinced myself, while inspecting the car in the store, was "I've seen scratch built styrene models that were more complicated than this would be. Surely it can't be that hard to mend a little bit of missing plastic, right?"
Well, I suppose we'll be finding that one out soon enough.

As for the Windex, it didn't go well.
We didn't have any! The window cleaner that is on hand clearly says "ammonia free" on it, and apparently the windex we have back at home (still on vacation right now) is ammonia free too. So it looks like that's going to have to wait for the time being.

Stay tuned- tomorrow will be the trip back home, but I imagine in the coming week I may just be able make some progress.

-Ellie

[Flintlock76]

OK Ellie, good enough!  I hope that Tamiya chart is some use to you for the repair.

[fifedog]

When the prototype railroads use a "patch", they simply use the matching paint they have on hand, and the exact hue might change from repair shop to repair shop. Close is good enough. Or, they may just use black for the repair, surmising the whole car would eventually be repainted some day down the road. Your car has it's own unique story, which adds interest.

[Flintlock76]

fifedog

When the prototype railroads use a "patch", they simply use the matching paint they have on hand, and the exact hue might change from repair shop to repair shop. Close is good enough.

Or the original paint's faded from exposure to weather and sunlight, so new paint even of the same mixture as the original isn't going to match and painting the whole car just isn't worth the effort.

[philo426]

Interesting challenge to fabricate the missing sections..but it can be done!

[KRM]

You can always cover the repaired area with graffiti providing your layout has any modern units on it.

[Leverettrailfan]

Once again, thanks everyone for the encouraging words! I do like that school of thought, that "on the real thing" it wouldn't be 'perfect' either.

Wayne, I will definitely consult the paint chart, I've never used Tamiya before but I'm not extremely traveled with paints. I didn't start developing a serious interest in painting models until well after Testors had discontinued its Floquil and PollyScale paint lines. In late 2019/early 2020, I bought a couple Model Master paint bottles for a neat scratch build (my first ever!) I was doing. I decided to search the stuff up this evening since I remember it was really nice to work with. Well, darn was I surprised to see they've discontinued that too! Good thing I didn't have enough time to get too invested in that paint line, I guess.

KRM, with a few exceptions, all my locomotives and rollingstock are prewar, postwar, or MPC era, and nothing is based on what I'd consider "modern" equipment. It's a really fun idea though, not a bad way to cover up a blemish on an otherwise good car. I do enjoy some of the graffitti that rolls by on the 1:1 railroad adjacent to the trolley museum where I volunteer. Occasionally you'll see a mural painted on the side of a car... way cool. 

-Ellie