Is there any Lionel Loco with baldwin wheels and Magnatraction?

[trainlivebob]

Im looking to buy a PW Lionel with the Baldwin wheels, just for looks, I suppose.

Im looking at a 2025, 675 but I also wanted magnatraction to stay on my 027 track.

Any locos like that?  If not, which one with baldwin wheels has the best pull and wont topple in a turn as easy?

Thanks

[Swiss-Colorado-Lines]

Hi Bob,

 the " Baldwin Wheels" were a product of the late pre war/ early postwar production. They look great, and really are quite amazing in that they are built up from many separate pieces, such as nickel tires, and steel flanges. But, that all went away when Magnetraction came in, with a single piece " sintered" wheel. I have several engines with Baldwins.

Comparisons: I have 2 2025 engines, '47 production, and 2 2035 engines with Magnetraction. They are very similar, but the 2035's can start a train of heavy postwar operating cars without slipping. The 2025's are heavy, and will eventually get it started with some slippage.The 2025's are heavy, and generally stay on the track quite well. I have a pre war 224 e with Baldwins, it is a much lighter engine, does not pull as much as the 2025's, and can more easily go airborne on a curve.

Paul

[ADCX Rob]

The 726 doesn't have MagneTraction, but has a lower center of gravity than the 675/2025, is heavier, and geared better for power(over speed). 

The Baldwin Disc wheels reappeared in 1972 with the 8206, but it has rubber tire traction. It was followed up by the similar 8603 in 1976.  I don't recall any MagneTraction steamers w/ Baldwin Discs.

[Leverettrailfan]

To my knowledge, when Magnetraction came around, the Baldwin disc drivers were no longer being produced. That said, I don't see why one couldn't (very carefully, and with the right tools) re-fit a magnetraction chassis with disc drivers in place of the originals. I've entertained the idea often, but never dared to try it. Among other reasons, I simply don't have the equipment to safely pull and re-fit wheels, and certainly could not get the level of precision needed if I tried to do it anyway with all the wrong stuff.
I suppose your best bets are either investing in all the tools, a magnetraction equipped loco, and a set of appropriately sized baldwin discs, or finding someone you could comission to do it for you.
As has been said, the heavier locomotives with a diecast chassis (early 726, 2020/early 671) are known to be very good performers even without magnetraction. This said, the 726 is not designed for 027 curves. The 2020 was sold with O27 sets but due to the length of its wheelbase, it will perform better on 'Standard O' with a curve diameter of ~31" versus the narrower 27" diameter curve of O27. The early (1946-1949) 671 is exactly the same as the 2020, except for the number on the cab.

-Ellie

[ADCX Rob]

Leverettrailfan

...re-fit a magnetraction chassis with disc drivers in place of the originals

Totally do-able, but the MagneTraction won't work. Different metallurgy.

Leverettrailfan

...(2020/early 671) are known to be very good performers even without magnetraction.

No Baldwin Discs on these.

Leverettrailfan

...the 726 is not designed for 027 curves.

But it will run on O-27 curves.  It will even run through 1122(E) and 1121 switches.

[Flintlock76]

A good "quick n' dirty" way too tell if a Baldwin driver engine has Magnetraction is if the drivers have nickle rims there's no Magnetraction, if they're plain there's a good possibility it does, depending on the model.

Personally I wouldn't go through the headache of replacing drivers, it's not worth the trouble.  Use the engine according to its limitations.

[trainlivebob]

Thanks Paul for the info.

I think im leaning toward the 1947 2025 for the looks.   I have some great pullers in a 2046, and 746 along with diesels.

[trainlivebob]

Thanks Rob,

Ah, yes, the 726 looks great, just a little more than I want to spend right now.

Im also not sure how it will run on 027 track, with 027 curves.  Any experience with that?

 

Bob

[trainlivebob]

I see I got my answer.  I thought it could run through the curves, but through 1122 switches, I had my doubts.  My 2046 has trouble through the switch turnouts.  No problem through the straighaways.  Same with my 746.

 

Bob

[ADCX Rob]

trainlivebob

Im also not sure how it will run on 027 track, with 027 curves. Any experience with that?

That IS my experience.  It will run on O-27 curves.  It will even run through 1122(E) and 1121 switches.

[Swiss-Colorado-Lines]

The '47 2025 with the Baldwin Disk drivers is a beautiful engine! I loved the first one so much....I bought a second!

Paul

[smokey1]

I may be wrong, but to my understanding, Lionel did not make Magnatraction with the disk drivers as they were made out of a material that was not able to be magnetic.

[Leverettrailfan]

I had initially thought they were of ferrous metal, but in looking back, I think the wheels I was thinking of were those on my 1666- they have the seperate treads like the disk drivers, but they are not Baldwin Disks. My mistake! I can certainly understand why Lionel wouldn't have done the 'disks' in steel- the castings look pretty detailed to me, I can see why Zamak would be chosen over a ferrous metal.

-Ellie

[emdmike]

The 1946 version of the 726 with the smoke bulb, and double worm drive and spur gear reduction runs even better on tighter curves than the later versions with the single worm drive(canted motor).  The gear reduction equils slower more prototypical speed and better speed stability thru curves.  Mine runs excellent thru 031, havent tried it on 027 but I see no reason why it wont.  The 671 Turbine from 1946, also double worm drive and smoke bulb smoke unit is a good puller for not having magne traction.  Now some of the diesels have issues on 027 with the switches,  The F3's, Trainmaster ect are to long and side swipe the switch machine housing.  Now if you want to pull the house down, may I suggest a pair of 2343 or 2344 F3's.  Dual motor, magne traction and just brutes when it comes to pulling power.   Santa Fe(2343) or NYC(2344) are the choices.  I have a pair of 2344's.  Pretty much any of these engines, along with the 675/2025/2035 are great runners.  You can always upgrade your track to 031 O gauge track to accomidate a greater variety of engines as well.    Mike

[ADCX Rob]

emdmike

You can always upgrade your track to 031 O gauge track to accomidate a greater variety of engines as well.

Or add 34" / 42" / 54" / or 72" diameter O-27 curves.

[emdmike]

Yep, you can get bigger radius track in the 027 height rails.  I used to have a layout done with 42" diameter 027 track.  Works well and actually looks more prototypical than the much taller O gauge track in my opinion.  But larger diameter switches are harder to find, I believe K line made them at one time, not sure if Lionel ever did a bigger radius turnout in the 027 line of track.  Hence why most folks go up to 0 gauge tubular track(or other systems/brands) so they can run bigger steam and diesels without issues.  As cheap as good older O gauge track can had, its almost a no brainer to upgrade to it unless one has a well established layout with scenery.   I did find over time that the outside rail on 027 would flex enough from the larger/heavier steamers to work loose the tie crimping, especially running Berkshires and big diesels.  

[trainlivebob]

ADCX Rob

 Thanks everyone for their thoughts.

I have started to do that by adding 42  and 34 diameter track. But I still have issues going through my turnouts with certain locos.  More investigative work required.

Also am going to try making a 90 degree turn with a combination of 54-027-054

Its just hard finding track in 027 gauge that isn't 27 diameter.

looking at pricing, i've decided to look for a 2025 for the nice lookin' wheels and a  1950 637 for the looks and hauling up grade..  I figure I can get both of them for less than a 627.

 

emdmike

You can always upgrade your track to 031 O gauge track to accomidate a greater variety of engines as well.

 

 

Or add 34" / 42" / 54" / or 72" diameter O-27 curves.

 

 

[trainlivebob]

emdmike

The 1946 version of the 726 with the smoke bulb, and double worm drive and spur gear reduction runs even better on tighter curves than the later versions with the single worm drive(canted motor).  The gear reduction equils slower more prototypical speed and better speed stability thru curves.  Mine runs excellent thru 031, havent tried it on 027 but I see no reason why it wont.  The 671 Turbine from 1946, also double worm drive and smoke bulb smoke unit is a good puller for not having magne traction.  Now some of the diesels have issues on 027 with the switches,  The F3's, Trainmaster ect are to long and side swipe the switch machine housing.  Now if you want to pull the house down, may I suggest a pair of 2343 or 2344 F3's.  Dual motor, magne traction and just brutes when it comes to pulling power.   Santa Fe(2343) or NYC(2344) are the choices.  I have a pair of 2344's.  Pretty much any of these engines, along with the 675/2025/2035 are great runners.  You can always upgrade your track to 031 O gauge track to accomidate a greater variety of engines as well.    Mike

 

Im actually going to put two 2243 Santa Fe in tandem (since I have them) to get the pulling power I need.  But really the limiting physics seems to be the trailing cars want to pull in to a straight line on 027 curves and derail or the couplers let go.

[Leverettrailfan]

I had that problem a lot with my wooden Brio trains when I was a kid. It doesn't happen to me so often with my O gauge equipment, but I pretty much never use O27 track- I switched to O-31 around 2017 when I finally got ahold of enough track, and I haven't really gone back since. My best advice is to always put the heaviest cars up at the front of the train, and then work your way down to the lightest cars at the back. It also helps to use cars manufactured 1970 or later, which have the 'fast angle wheel' and needle point bearings. Even without oiling them, these cars will roll better than any oiled postwar car. You'll be able to pull a lot more through the curves without issues. That said, you should still avoid putting any of the lighter cars at the front of the train.
I find that the Lionel postwar gondolas in my roster seem the most inclined to derail from abrupt stops and starts, and it's best to keep them as far away from the front of the train as you can if you're operating a heavy train through tight curves.

It can seem a little annoying, but I've gotten so used to doing it that it hardly bothers me anymore. I tend to always factor in frieght car weight and bearing fricton when I'm setting up a train without even thinking about it, it's just become a habit!

-Ellie

[trainlivebob]

Thanks for your advice Ellie.

I have been learning that about the gondolas.  The post 1970 cars do roll good but are so light the PW cars seem to pull them off.  I have just a few and I put them toward the back and together with the small gondolas.  Its been fun trying to overcome the physics.

Bob