Lionel 1061, 7611 shells, and mystery track!

[Leverettrailfan]

Well, with my busy weekend over I can finally post...

A friend who has often blessed me with 'train junk' he doesn't want/need, gave me two more boxes of 'stuff'.
There were a few major points of interest I was curious about, and thought I'd pitch some questions to everyone here on the CTT forums.
To start us off, we have a group of 4 6-7611 Lionel 'spirit of 76' New York state boxcar shells. If there was just one, I'd figure someone parted it out. But there were four of these. They're unfortunately not flawless, but I am very curious what their story is. Are they factory rejects? Never assembled old stock? I have literally zero clue, and none of the expertise in toy train collecting to say. I would love to know more.

More pictures can be taken if that'd help solve the mystery.

Next up we have a set- it's clearly a 'bottom of the barrel' deal from Lionel, produce some time in the '60s.
Looking online I saw pictures show up for other trains which seemed to match the lineup I've got here- a 1061, slopeback tender, blue 6112(?) gondola , and a red SP style caboose- all cars with plastic AAR trucks.
It seemed that there was some variation in this "set"- the components I have were all included with least one, maybe two or more sets. It seems from the images I was seeing, that there was significant variation in the decoration of the 'set'. Some of the cars came with lettering, and some did not- the tender seemed to usually have lettering (Lionel Lines). My cars, as you can see, are completely undecorated. I'm seeing a few images of a set with these components and an additional flat car that uses the 1877 chassis in brown, but lacks markings.
I'd love to know if there were any set numbers I could associate this 'set' with, and what the remaining components would have been besides what I have.


Lastly, I have some track. I had two sections of this before, curved track. I'm fascinated by this stuff because the way the ties are designed, the track has superelevation. I'm eager to potentially be able to use at least some of it, and it's bugging me to no end, wondering who made it and if they had any special name for the track. It's real neat looking to me, I wonder if it made much difference in how fast you could get a train 'round a corner without flipping it over. Interestingly, note the straight sections also have superelevated ties.



Any and all help and insight would be much appreciated.

Best regards,
Ellie

[Leverettrailfan]

Update: I think I might have pinned down a set number? Saw two old online  auctions reference this rough consist with the set number 11420. However, one has the flatcar and ones does not, not sure what the scoop is on that.
Found this old catalog scan that lists a 11420 which has a consist that seems to match what I have:

So this may answer my curiosity about what the set components were.

also of note, the cars all have solid plastic non-operating couplers.

[ADCX Rob]

Leverettrailfan

This is Chicago American Flyer "O" - nominally about O-40 / O-42.  12 pieces to a circle.

[lionelsoni]

Here's a way to find the actual radius and diameter from a 30-degree piece of curved track:

Measure the chord length of the center rail.  This is the straight-line distance between the ends of the center rail.  Make each measurement to the very center of the rail end, ignoring the rail flanges and the rail head.

The radius to the center rail is the chord length multiplied by 1.93185 .

To get the conventional diameter, including the crossties, double the radius and add the length of one tie.

Of course you can always just make a complete circle of track and measure its diameter:  Measure twice, a quarter of the way around the circle, and average the measurements.  This won't be as accurate, because you may not be able to get all the joints tightly together at the same time. 

[Flintlock76]

Per those New York State "Spirit of '76" car shells my guess is they're factory rejects (as you say, they've got flaws) that found their way out the back door of the Lionel factory.  Otherwise their existance just doesn't make sense. 

Now if they were Virginia shells then man, you'd have something!  Those Virginia '76 cars are tough to find!  

[Leverettrailfan]

Thanks ADCX Rob! Will be keeping an eye out for more of this Chicago flyer track. I own some wide gauge track made by them, but it lacks the superelevated ties that this track intruiged me with. I also like the slightly broader radius.

Thanks to Lionelsoni for the advice on measuring radius. My track is a bit dinged up so the trick might not give me perfectly accurate results (it could vary a lot between sections) but I can almost get a full circle out of what I've got so I can get a rough estimate that way without doing the math- it's a great tool, but sometimes (often) I feel like being lazy and avoiding it when I can. I blame my old high school's math curriculum for my reluctance to engage in mathematics.

Flintlock76

Per those New York State "Spirit of '76" car shells my guess is they're factory rejects (as you say, they've got flaws) that found their way out the back door of the Lionel factory.  Otherwise their existance just doesn't make sense. 

Now if they were Virginia shells then man, you'd have something!  Those Virginia '76 cars are tough to find!

Darn! Too bad I didn't luck out with anything too rare. All the same, I'm more an operator than a collector so the shells have little use to me. I'm probably going to have to sell them to make room for other stuff since my collection is getting big enough as it is. And again- can't run 'em, they aren't really my kind of display piece... why keep 'em?

Much appreciated for your insight everyone, where would I be without the wonderful people of these forums?

-Ellie

[Flintlock76]

Leverettrailfan

I'm probably going to have to sell them

Just so you know, my price guide from 2009 shows the complete '76 New York cars around $30 in excellent condition, $35 like new.  So price what you've got accordingly.

Prices on the "Spirit of '76" cars average from $25 to $35 each, with the exception of the Virginia car, that one's $140 to $160.  No-one knows why it's so scarce, it just is.

Several years ago I saw a "Spirit of '76" set for sale at a show, but without the Virginia car.  There was a placard on it saying "Sorry Santa, there is no Virginia!"

Actually, Lionel didn't sell them as a set, they came out as individual items.

[smokey1]

Flintlock76

 

 

Leverettrailfan

I'm probably going to have to sell them

 

 

Just so you know, my price guide from 2009 shows the complete '76 New York cars around $30 in excellent condition, $35 like new.  So price what you've got accordingly.

Prices on the "Spirit of '76" cars average from $25 to $35 each, with the exception of the Virginia car, that one's $140 to $160.  No-one knows why it's so scarce, it just is.

Several years ago I saw a "Spirit of '76" set for sale at a show, but without the Virginia car.  There was a placard on it saying "Sorry Santa, there is no Virginia!"

Actually, Lionel didn't sell them as a set, they came out as individual items.

 

From what I was told about the Virginian cars that Some big shot in the Virginia government made a deal with Lionel to get most if not all of them for employees in state government ( like head of different departments or something like that, not every employee ) at the time, but Lionel did produce a small number for the rest of the set anyway. And yes each car was a separate sale if I remember correctly.

[Leverettrailfan]

Flintlock76

Just so you know, my price guide from 2009 shows the complete '76 New York cars around $30 in excellent condition, $35 like new.  So price what you've got accordingly.

I figured they're probably not that valuable. Unless it's for an especially desirable item, and/or in exceptionally good condition, shells seem to have a pretty low value. Makes sense to me, if it's not good for upgrading from a poor condition shell, and it's not a rare piece, there's no point in spending a lot of money on one.

I just want 'em out- but I don't want to throw them away, and a few extra bucks is a few more parts towards the trains that remain in the collection.

Thanks for the story behind the Virginia cars, Smokey!
-Ellie

[KRM]

ADCX Rob

 

 

Leverettrailfan

 

 

 

This is Chicago American Flyer "O" - nominally about O-40 / O-42.  12 pieces to a circle.

 

 

Yes Rob nailed it. I have a lot of that track from my mid 30s AF three rail stuff. Check with Northwoods Flyer to find out more. And yeah you can go a lot faster.

[Flintlock76]

Leverettrailfan

I figured they're probably not that valuable.

If they were mine I'd put them out for $5 each, but wouldn't turn down any reasonable offers. 

[Flintlock76]

smokey1

From what I was told about the Virginian cars that Some big shot in the Virginia government made a deal with Lionel to get most if not all of them for employees in state government (

Yeah, I've heard that story too.  The trouble is no-one in the train collectors club I belong to here in VA can confirm or deny it, they're just as much in the dark as anone else.