Poll: best way to silence Fastrack

[Anonymous]

I thought I'd go to the experts here. I'm planning a new layout (my first). It will use fastrack (probably close to 100ft of it). I'm building it on benches made from 1x4, 2x4 and plywood top. Layout is 8x12'. Considering that I'm breaking the bank by going w/ Fastrack (because i already have 1/3 of the track collected), what is the best, or easiest, or cheapest way to keep this layout/track quiet? Remember, i'm starting from scratch so if I need to lay down a 8x12 sheet of something on top of the bench(s), I can do this before I get started.

What are your thoughts? What has worked best for you? What is my easiest approach? What is my cheapest approach? What is my best long term + expansion approach?

Also, anyone got a cheap source for Fastrack? I see a couple of websites online that are much cheaper than my local hobby shops. I'll be using O36,O48, O60 and O72 curves w/ O36 switches (remote and manual).

Oh, anyone found a way to make a 45-degree O48 turn w/ Fastrack? Lionel Support threw in the towel on me. Any success in chopping Fastrack? I only need one 45-degree O48 turn so I'm thinking of doing some cutting.

Wow, could I possible ask any more questions.....sorry! This may make 'hot topic' status!

Thanks in advance for any advice!

Matt

[Anonymous]

Hey man. I would say it is best to go with the old style track. Its harder to put together but it takes up less room and is quieter that Fastrack.

You don't have too...
Thats just my advice.

Regards,
Colin

[Anonymous]

I would recommend gluing a layer of soundboard or homasote on top of the plywood. To secure the fastrack to the soundboard, I would recommend running a bead of silicone caulk on the inside edge of the base of the fastrack and then press it into the soundboard. If you need to make changes, you can run a thin blade underneath the track to lift it up & peel off the old caulk. You might try experimenting with a piece or 2 to see what the results are. You could also try filling the hollow cavity beneath the fastrack with expanding foam to see if this makes any additional improvement.

Daniel Lang

[Jim Duda]

Matt - since you already invested in over 30 ft. of FastTrak, I presume you are past the "point of no return" and are committed to finishing your layout with it, rather than opt for a "quieter" track system. Alas, I don't think I can recall an EFFECTIVE method of quieting the FasTrak - most do the best they can and live with it.

We need to hear from someone with a similar sized table (8' X 12') that has FastTrak that is whisper quiet and hear exactly what they used. I'm wondering if a 1 inch insulation foam sandwich using 1/4 in. ply in the middle, with indoor/outdoor carpeting on the top might help...

[willpick]

Using Homasote or Soundboard is a good idea. I like the idea of using silicone caulk as that will tend to isolate the track from the baseboard. I know that some people have used indoor/outdoor carpet with varying degrees of success--The best carpet seems to be the kind that is sold for use in a marine enviroment, as it has a foam backing.

Filling the hollow underside with foam may work, but then what do you do if you want to sell it?
Hope this helps!

[Anonymous]

OK, good stuff. If I wasn't past the point of no return which brand of track would you recommend? How does it size-up costwise? I might be able to offload my fastrack onto my father (who i'm getting back into trains as we speak).

What is homasote and where can I find it?

Thanks!

Matt

[Frank in Steam]

Best way to silence Fastrack is Gargraves. But if you must, I would try the silicone method. You will need to dampen the resonance of the plastic as it 'sings'. The good thing about the silicone is that you can break its seal leave the silicone blob(s) in as damping and reuse the track if necessary.

PS Gargraves

[Anonymous]

Do you know any good online dealers of Gargraves track? Is it expensive?

[Buckeye Riveter]

Here is some information that I posted a while back on another TRAINS.COM forum. When you use two different densities of foam, the energy in the sound wave gets depleted as it tries to pass from one material to the other. (You physics guys might help me with this.)

---

QUOTE: Originally posted by Buckeye Riveter

Cathy,
A friend of mine told me you were looking for some help with sound deadening and asked me to post my ideas.

First of all congratulations on the Polar Express. I purchased one for my daughter who is 25 years old and loves the book. Neat little train and good runner.[:)]

As to the sound deadening, the Polar Express came with Lionel's Fast Trac, which is what I am assuming you are going to use for the 4x8 layout. This track is somewhat noisy, but we can tone it down by using some simple principles of physics.

What I suggest you do is go ahead and get your plywood table built and then cover it with foam. Directly on top of the plywood put 1" high-density foam. This is the type that is shown in the photo below and can easily be purchased at Lowes or Home Depot. (The photo actually shows 2" foam on a joist type bench work.)

Next purchase 1/2" to 1" of the white beaded foam and put it on top of the high density foam.

Now you have a "sandwich of foam" on top of the plywood. It will knock down the sound fairly good.
Use screws into the foam to hold the track. They don't even need to go into the plywood. I use deck screws to hold my track. A skirt around the table will also cut down on the sound. A plastic table skirt can be found at a paper party store or someplace similar.

The foam can be painted any color you like with normal latex house paints. You can carve it to make any shape you want. My layout is completely built of foam. Craft stores have special inexpensive tools to carve foam.

You can also find a previous post of mine on the CTT forum at : http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=23548&REPLY_ID=239831#239831

In fact, I would like to suggest that you take a look at the CTT forum. It is free just like all of the rest of the forums.

[brianel027]

Matt, if you go with the foam as Buckeye has done, I can tell you the Pink board is more solid than the others like the Blue or the White bead board.

FasTrack is just noisy. It's the way the track was designed, as simple as that. Tubular track is noisy too, but at least there are known ways to deal with that problem that not only work but are also affordable. I think FasTrack was a huge mistake (other than immediate gratification under the CHRISTmas tree), and I think if you did a survey, most modelers would agree. Probably many wi***hey had brought Super 0 track back into production!!

I don't think 30 feet of track is beyond the point of no return.... depends what your track budget is and what you hope to do in the future. I personally like 027 track... it's cheap, available everywhere, easy to find used, and is available in more than just 27 inch diameter curves if you want to run larger cars and engines.

In terms of realism and affordabilty, the next choice (as mentioned above) is Gargraves. It's been around for years... the new turnouts from Gargraves have been improved and Gargraves is also available in sectional curves as well as the flex track sections. Also in either wood or plastic ties.

The turnouts are going to be your main cost in whatever track system you go with. The MPC period Lionel 027 turnouts are not the best, but there are the older vintage Lionel ones as well as the new and improved K-Line ones. You can also use Lionel or K-Line 027 track with Gargraves turnouts - they're both the same height and Gargraves makes mating pins.

Tubular 0 track is also plentiful new and used. The turnouts here are what will cost you. But if you are patient and bargain hunt, you can find these at a good price. Just stay far away from the revised Lionel 0 guage turnouts from around I think 1996 or so - the ones with the removable curve part. These turnouts are junk and no one I know who bought them was happy with them. Lionel soon dropped them too.

[Big_Boy_4005]

The best way to silence Fastrack is: don't use it.

No amount of securing or damping will totally remove the noise. This is a result of the manufacturing process. In the photo below I have removed one of the rails, to reveal the series of small air pockets. These little echo chambers are the source of the problem. It is not the open space under the roadbed that causes most of the problem.

[Anonymous]

I have a loop of Fastrak here on the office floor. It is on very soft carpeting, and it is still very loud.

Oh well, it looks nice and it works well.

[Anonymous]

Gee, I'm sure glad THIS subject was brought up!

In the next few months, I'm looking to install a wall-mounted main-line circle in my living room, mounted a few feet below the ceiling, & around the entire parimeter of the room. Since I have no room for a full-sized permanent layout, this is my only option, other than the usual temp. Christmas layouts.

At first I was gonna go with Atlas steel track, since it was recently rated so high in CTT, but when I discovered that it didn't have built-in road bed, I was considering FasTrack.

Since MTH's RealTrax isn't made of much steel and didn't fare well in the CTT review for electrical conductivity or magnatraction adhesion, I guess I'm back to square #1.....

I suppose the tried & true Lionel tube track is the next best thing, unfortuneately.

I really didn't want to mess with ballasting.

Thanks, Big_Boy, for posting the picture.

[nblum]

I'd go with the foam board strategy recommended by Buckeye Riveter. It's inexpensive, low weight benchwork and will work. All three rail trains are noisy, IMO, track or no track :). FasTrack is a good choice if you want something with built-in roadbed. It's electrically and structurally much more rugged and reliable than Realtrax, and not any more expensive than Atlas or sectional Gargraves. The only downside right now is the availability of all the sizes and shapes, as you point out. If you want a lot of custom pieces, Gargraves makes sense, but bending it and cutting it yourself takes some skill and knowledge, and the preformed sections are nice, but pricey. Atlas is a good choice too. Tubular is by far the cheapest but most likely to give you lacerations, and you have to like the toy like appearance. If you like the toy like appearance, it's clearly the way to go, either K-Line or Lionel (the latter is much more readily available). To my ears, none of these track types are loud if placed upon soft, sound absorbent surfaces such as carpet, rubber matting or foam.

[FJ and G]

Short of a pistol with silencer, I don't know, unless you go thru the trouble of filling up the tubes and underside of the trackbed with Dap or caulking.

A different approach would be to mask the sound by using locomotives equipped with sound and turn the volume up.

[restoman]

Mattk330
Here's my advise, take it for what it is worth. Listen to what Big Boy told you. I'm in the process of constructing a new layout that is aproximatly 20'x20'. I ran some tests on my grades using both homesote and foam. I also tried three different types of track including Fast Track, Gargraves, and standard Lionel "O". All side by side using the same motive power. Bottom line is Gargraves on homesote is the quietest. FORGET the foam ( espescially the red DOW foam) Extreamly LOUD! infact it was louder than when I tried placing the track directly on the plywood! I'm using Gargraves for sure. It's cheaper in the long run and in my opinion the only way to go.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FJ and G

Short of a pistol with silencer, I don't know, unless you go thru the trouble of filling up the tubes and underside of the trackbed with Dap or caulking.

A different approach would be to mask the sound by using locomotives equipped with sound and turn the volume up.

Thats what my Loco sound equipped 2-8-0 does when I run it on the Realtrax or fasttrack

[Buckeye Riveter]

Last year, Chief Eagles stopped by when he was in Wheeling, WV at the grand opening of the Cabela's store. He wanted to see what I was doing and how it performed. One of the advantages and disadvantages that I have is the slope of the ceiling reflects the sound out to the operator and viewers.

QUOTE: Originally posted by ChiefEagles

Talk to Buckeye. He has his layout on foam only [yes foam only]. He uses deck screws pushed into the foam and they will hold the track in place. He says they will hold it fine and the track will settle into the foam some after running trains on it. I've seen his layout and it works fine.

Here are some of his photos: [he will not mind and can share more of construction]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Buckeye Riveter

Thank you Chief for those kind words. [:)][:)] I know it is hard for you to say such benevolent statements about a YANKEE from Buckeye Land. [:D]

And now on to the foam. Yes, my whole layout sits on foam. It is high-density 2" foam purchased at Home Depot, one of my favorite stores. The foam sits on joists at approximately 16" spacing. On top of the high density foam sits the 1" white foam.

Again, the Chief is correct, I do use deck screw or drywall screws to hold the track to the foam. If you really have a problem holding to the foam, I use a plastic "Molly" type connection and low heat glue and imbed it. I wished I had taken a photo of this.

The main reasons I used foam were; 1. The layout is designed to move and 2. after shelling out my hard earned money for Railsounds, I wanted to hear it. [:)] The foam accomplished both goals.


My layout extension under construction will not use the 1" white foam overlay, since the two inch meets all the goals stated above.


Approx. same view of layout as above

Q: How do you walk on the layout?
A: I don't. I designed it so I could reach everything. My new addition will have hidden hatches inside the exposed loops. The cat has been know to walk on the layout and hide in the tunnel.

Q: Does it make wiring easier?
A: Much easier. I use an extra long drill bit (10”) and punch through the foam. No drilling required, as you need to do with wood.

Q: Over time does it deflect or sag?
A: We have not seen any sag in the foam. On my previous HO layout the plywood sagged all the time with the changes of moisture in the air.

Q: Where are the transformer and controls located?
A: Under the layout on a small shelf

Q: How much will it hold?
A: I might try to calculate that someday. [:)]

One other thing, if you look near the end of the book, How to Build Model Railroad Benchwork , by Linn Westcott, published by Kalambach, he just starts to touch on the subject on the use of foam. This book is usually found in most decent hobby stores.

[ChiefEagles]

Buckeye is right. I stopped by his place last year. I saw the construction. Then he ran the trains [not as fast as I do [;)]]. No noise except rails sounds and with them off, none at all. I'm convienced that foam is the trick. Now he has RealTrax and not FasTrax. I do know the foam is the best quitner in the bunch. I saw it and did not hear it. [:)] [BTW, Buckeye is some super structional engineer by degree and trade. His bench work is light but strong and quite. Why not follow the professional?]

[Buckeye Riveter]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ChiefEagles

Buckeye is right. I stopped by his place last year. I saw the construction. Then he ran the trains [not as fast as I do [;)]]. No noise except rails sounds and with them off, none at all. I'm convienced that foam is the trick. Now he has RealTrax and not FasTrax. I do know the foam is the best quitner in the bunch. I saw it and did not hear it. [:)] [BTW, Buckeye is some super structional engineer by degree and trade. His bench work is light but strong and quite. Why not follow the professional?]

[:I][:I][:I][:I][:I][:I][:I][:I][:I][:I][:I][:I][:I][:I][:I]

[Boyd]

The september issue of CTT has an article on building a quiet layout. Drawn out in the article is as follows: plywood base, carpet pad, cork roadbed, then tubular Lionel track (this is pre Fastrack). Holes were drilled all the way through, then plastic zip ties were used to secure it all together. I'm sure this could all be done with Fastrack.
One thing I have really really disliked about Lionel over the years is the cheap & unrealistic look of the standard tubular track. Fastrack looks much better and doesn't look like the rails are a scale 3 feet tall.

[Anonymous]

Thanks, by the way, to everyone...You all have provided valid feedback and I appreciate it!

Buckeye,

With your 2" high-density foam, how easy is it to cut...or rather sculpt? I'm toying with the idea of using a couple of layers of 2" foam mainly because I want to hack up the top layer to create contour for a creekbed and a pond. Is this wildly out of the question with the 2" high-dense foam board? What would be the best tool/implement to do this type of cutting/sculpting? if this is do-able, what about using a layer of hemosote on the bottom and then one layer of 2" foam on top?

Thoughts?

[Buckeye Riveter]

When I first started cutting foam, I tried several things such as a saw and a knife. What a mess!!! I then purchased a Woodland Scenic foam cutter. It cuts the foam, but what a wimpy tool. The wire was busting all the time and then I saw this being demonstrated at a train show in Dayton, Ohio
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19127&item=5949139408&rd=1#ebayphotohosting

So being cheap, I didn't buy one and broke another Woodland Scenic foam cutter. After going through two foam cutters, I finally purchased the Tippi Foam Cutter and it is the only thing I would recommend to cut through 2" foam. It works![:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

When we built the mountain we also used a cheese grater to help shape the foam. Another big mess, but the shop vac sucked it up quickly.

As to building the pond, I screwed up and thought I need to dig a deep hole in the foam. There are some excellent articles in Model Railroader about building water features. I should have listened. [:(]

As to the foam on homosote, remember, it is the density changes and total mass that knock down the noise, so it should have some effect. How much? I don't have a clue. [X-)]

[laz 57]

MATTK330,

Another thing to consider is to put askirt around the sides of your bench work. I did this with enclosing the side with shelfing and or plywood. Keeps all the bleed through sounds inside. Another thing for the skirt that I wish I would have done is to nail old used carpet to the sides to dampen that inside noise. If you have a carpet store near you when they tear out someones carpet they will ussally give it to you so you could cut the good stuff out and hang it to the sides.
Laz57