Don't Use DC Transformer with DC Motor

[Chris F]

In an earlier topic, I stated that you could run a DC-motored locomotive with a DC transformer (power pack). That may be true if it says so on the box or in the instructions, but...

I purchased a Lionel "Midwest Freight" starter set (2004 uncataloged) for the Christmas tree layout this year, and finally read the instructions after putting it away ([:I]). The instructions specifically state that a DC transformer should not be used, or the "sensitive electronics" in the loco may be damaged.

The loco supplied with the set is an RS-3 with 3-position reverse and a horn - doesn't get much simpler than that.

Just a heads-up. When all else fails, I should read the instructions.[:D]

[lionelsoni]

It would have been even better if you could have read the instructions before buying, and then not bought any locomotive that the manufacturer admits has "sensitive electronics" inside.

[Anonymous]

Command and DCS engines have dc motors in them but the ac is filtered and then changed to modified dc input to the motor.
No do not put dc on command engines or any electronic controled system.
Dc for two rail direct to the motor.

[Chris F]

Bob, with a forum name like yours, how could you even suggest I not buy a Lionel set![;)][:D]

I purchase Lionel labeled for the C&NW almost exclusively (keeps costs down). When I saw this uncataloged set at Hobby Lobby, I had to have it, and the price of $120 wasn't too bad, either.

The set includes a 40W transformer, so most who purchase it wouldn't be inclined to run it on DC. However, I thought I'd mention the DC warning because of an earlier post.

[brianel027]

Guess I'm the odd ball (always knew I was) but I run with DC current and have no problems and much prefer DC current to the track. On the lesser-expensive truck mounted DC motored locos, there is a noticable improvement in operation, especially with removal of the electronic circuit board e-unit. Of course, I use no command type locos and all my sounds are off board.

Versus the way I used to run these locos and the way I run them now, DC current is the way to go and I'm not going back... I'm that happy with the improvement.

[yellowducky]

I took the 'bridge' out of an AC/DC Thomas that was factory forward only.
Now can run it For/Rev on DC.
Also, it starts moving at around 4 volts instead of 7-9 volts, which gives gives
much improved low-speed control.

Found out that a lot of Lionel cheaper engines were made to run on AC and DC.
Are the higher priced Lionel engines made to run on both?

[brianel027]

Yellowducky, everything made DC can motors has a rectifier in the circuit board that allows the engine to run on AC current. This would include the truck mounted can motors and the vertical though-the-frame larger can motors (usually with a flywheel today). The added electronics, such as sound and control need the AC current to operate as they are designed that way.

The old standby open frame "Pullmor" motor runs on AC current, though it will also run on DC current as well. Basically any loco without command control or whistle/horn will run on DC current as well. The horn or whistle relays are made to activate with DC current so running a loco with horn/whistle on DC current will cause them to sound constantly.

Now on MPC period (or postwar) Lionel locos with the mechanical reverse unit, the DC current will cause the magnet in the reverse unit to act slower... you will get some lurching in the wrong direction when you change direction. The answer here is to turn up the power slow so the reverse unit has a change to engage before the locomotive moves. Or to use the "rapid direction button" on the Lionel transformer (I use a Lionel 1033 with a bridge rectifier installed along with a direction switch and another switch to go back to the normal AC current should I wish). Lionel at one time made a DC conversion box to accomodate Lionel transformers with their Large Scale train line.

For a period between 1976-1991 there were a number of lower end starter sets that came with DC power packs and locos (without the circuit board) that only run on DC current. On these locos you would need to install a rectifier to run them on AC, and a circuit board reverse unit with rectifier to run them in any direction other than just forward. The one real drawback to these DC sets was the low-quality power pack that came with them: it had no reserve amperage (so you can't run many cars with lights) and it had poor sensitivity at low speed ranges. You turned the thing on and the loco (without cars) went flying. The new DC power packs that come with many HO starter sets are a far cry improved over those rectangular black ones with the red handle (Lionel basically used the same one that came with many HO sets). I tried running one of my locos with one of these new Bachmann power packs and I was very impressed at how well it ran. But again, for our larger trains the same problem with these new power packs too: no reserve amperage.

I agree with your observation that the lower end DC can motored run much more smooothly and consistantly without the circuit board. I think of operation this way as "poor man's speed control" but it works. There is naturally some slowdown on tight 027 curves, but not nearly as much by running DC current without the circuit board.

On some of the smaller locos like the Lionel Industrial Switcher (1993-1996 production) by removing the circuit board, you can add much more weight to the loco. I have removed the traction tires on all mine and can still pull 9-10 cars will no slippage. I was just running my redone Conrail Industrial Switcher with 10 cars (including 2 heavier ones with diecast trucks) and had zero problems.

You do need to clean the track more regularily as well as the locomotive wheels when running with DC current, but I've always been good about doing this anyways. And as I mentioned above, my sounds are all off board and many operating cars (like the merchandise car and the milk car) I have altered to operate anywhere on the layout without the RC track. The uncoupling tracks are all also rewired to operate off auxiliary power so I can give them more voltage, since running on straight DC (as you noticed) allows the locomotives to run using less current to the track.

I guess you can tell I'm really into the DC way I operate... it's just works for me. To each his own. My way obviously isn't for everyone!!
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