Before the war, Lionel produced a beautiful American OO gauge Hudson powered train sets. Just a jewel of an engine and begging for passenger cars and further locomotives to be made. The events that brought us to war stopped all of that or any toy trains for many years. When things returned in 1946, Lionel chose to focus on O gauge only. I have always wondered how the toy train scene in the USA might be today had Lionel gone hog wild with the OO line instead. HO was in its infancy at that time and the slightly larger OO gauge gave more room for motors yet still fit in smaller spaces than O and Std gauge did. Lionel might have put OO better on the model railroading map had they expanded the line the way they did with O gauge in the postwar era. Think of diecast GG1's, maybe even using diecast for the F3's but in OO gauge. All the working accessories but in the smaller scale. More scale like engines instead of the toy like 2037's and various scout style models. I think it would have been a game changer and would have reshaped the hobby vs what we see today. Alas it didn't happen and we are left with the beautiful mini hudsons and their diecast freight cars...and wondering what could have been! Your thoughts and discussions? Lets have some fun pondering what could have been. Mike the Aspie
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
Lionel's OO scale was a wee bit larger than HO to better fit the motors of that era. Many early HO engines were closer to American OO(not to be confused with UK OO) to fit motors such as Mantua/Tyco old timer 4-6-0/4-8-0 locos. Lionel also offered the Hudson in both 2 rail and 3 rail. So they were aiming at both markets, the scale and the semi scale even offering a strip down version of the mini Hudson similar to the 773 we got in the postwar era. Even a working air whistle in the tender. With some upgrades to the track to do away with the fragile bakelite roadbed, expanding the rolling stock and so forth. Had Lionel persued OO instead of O after the war, things might look much different today. The Lionel stuff is the easiest to find with the Nason, Scalecraft and others a bit harder to find these days.
OO scale (12 * 25.4 / 4) matches the last two digits of the year of the US Declaration of Independence, whereas HO scale (12 * 25.4 / 3.5) matches the US Constitution. Furthermore, the British run OO-scale trains on HO-gauge track! Coincidence? I think not.
Bob Nelson
OO wasn't the only product line jettisoned by Lionel post WW2, Standard Gauge didn't come back either. Also, with the new knuckle couplers on the new O gauge trains all the pre-war O gauge cars couldn't be used with the new trains.
It didn't hurt Lionel at all during the post-war boom years, but later when HO began to take off they were probably sorry OO was dropped, even if it made sense to do so in 1945.
They probably thought it would be an easier scale to do the operating accessories and working smoke that came early in the postwar era. Double O would have taken a wee bit more engineering to accomplish, especially with the smoke. Yes, so much changed after the way, no more std gauge, different couplers and no more OO gauge. Had Lionel pushed OO, the HO world might be a bit different, they had the clout to really change the course of the hobby, much as std gauge took over in the USA vs gauge 1 in Europe/UK. Its an interesting idea to ponder, thats for sure.
Lionel could have entered HO in 1954 J Cowen was NOT partial to it
00 Lionel is 1/96 to HO 1/87
Lionel's Ho later became a joke when it came to quality something Lionel WAS associated with Yes the Rivorassi was well made and that was only ONE year
More surprising Flyer did not exploit HO more since they were making it WAY before LionelWhen the track became RtR that changed the market
J.L Cowen was influenced by Mr Donnely's Scale Craft trains in OO at that time, along with the NY/NJ area being a hot bed of OO activity. By the time that Lionel tried to enter the HO market, Josh was gone and others were in charge. The O gauge line had been cheapened over the prime years from 1946 thru the early 1950's. So the HO line was really doomed from the start. Of coarse, many of the competeting brands back then did not run that well either other than maybe Mantua and Bowser models. Wasn't till Athearn came out with their gear driven trucks with sintered iron wheels that became the standard for the Blue Box era did HO diesels really run well. What was nice is that Lionel OO ran well and I am sure the track worked well back then. These days most all is warped and has chips in the Bakelite base. I have only 1 piece out of my whole loop of 2 rail OO track that is not warped. I have no idea why that one piece is dead flat, yet all the rest have a smilely face warp to them with the ends bowed upwards on every piece. I am, as I type this, letting them get heated by the sun upside down on the hood of my old Jeep. 2 of which have weights in the middle. I am seeing if some heat and weight will reverse the warp back closer to flat. My roadbed is nice with no chipping, just warped. Mike
"00 Lionel is 1/96 to HO 1/87"
I'm pretty sure OO scale is 1/76.2, bigger than HO and smaller than S.
NOT correct Bob , Lionel is also 1:76th, but on correct OO gauge track. UK OO is the same scale ratio, but on HO track. It is their adaptation that is incorrect. Much like our O gauge 2 rail that has a track width of 5 foot unless you go Proto48. With their equipment so much smaller in real life, the OO ratio allowed room for decent size motors, HO track was more common so they choose that route. Over here we had both, HO and OO and obviously HO won that battle. After WWII, Lionel was gone from OO, the smaller guys held on for a few more years feeding the needs of the guys that had American OO layouts. Many folks, even to this day will mistake a Lionel OO Hudson as an HO model if its mixed in with a bunch of stuff. But put it next to one, and its very much larger, bigger than HO but smaller than S. Its kind of roughly in the middle ground between those two scales. The fact that UK stuck with the mix of OO scale on HO width track muddied the waters and confuses people. Mike the Aspie
Here is a quote from the American OO blog:
If you thought all OO was British and 16.5mm gauge, you were incorrect! Welcome to model railroading in American OO, 1/76 scale (4mm: 1 foot), 19mm (3/4 inch) gauge. While primarily produced between 1934 and 1954, these unique models sized about half way between HO (1/87) and S (1/64) scales by Lionel, Scale-Craft, Nason, Famoco, Schorr, Graceline, J-C, Kemtron, Picard, and many others still fascinate collectors and a few dedicated modelers ("retro-modelers") today.
Course I could have mistaken the nine for a seven it is in the Model Railroad book by Lionel
1/96 < 1/87
Silly innumerates.
Here is my new 003 full scale Hudson(its tender is still on my bench in pieces as I clean and service it). This is basicly a 700e with all the details, seperate pipes and valve gear ect. These are absolutly jewel like and amazing considering when they were made. For those with a love of the prewar scale side of Lionel, but short in the wallet when it comes to the O gauge 700e or B6 switcher. Check out OO!! A whole set can be had for less than a 700e. The common frame warp is not usually due to zinc pest, but an overtightened smoke stack screw, you only want it finger tight to keep things in place. And there is a gentleman out in Arizona that can fix that frame. My 004 semi scale Hudson's frame will go to him here shortly. My 003 is ok. All the cars are diecast metal and Gargraves makes track in both 2 and 3 rail, just no switches. Lionel did 3 rail ones but they are uber rare and very salty $$ wise. The 2 rail versions can also run on On30 flex track and turnouts. Tru-scale did track years ago that pops up from time to time. Many early HO buildings and the Lionel villas and bungalows are closer to OO than O gauge. Even my Marx Girard station looks good with it.
And another pic, this time of all my operational cars other than the 2nd caboose.
Very detailed! Great looking model. A mini 700e!
Paul
They really are Paul. Looks like someone took Stewie Griffin's shrink ray gun and zapped a prewar 700e. But unlike the O gauge one, these seem to not have suffered the zinc pest in the boiler/cab area and most warped frames are not so much swelling of the casting, but an overtightened screw in the smoke stack that pulls upwards on the frame, while the running board steps push downwards on the pilot, add in decades of being in this state, and we have a warped frame. But its very fixable and a gentleman out in Arizona does that. For those that cannot afford(me) a 700e, or even if they could but still lack the room for a layout to run it. OO is a nice option. With the 3 rail version, the track is 27" in diameter, so a micro layout can be done like this demo layout Lionel made.
I always say it's fun to explore another gauge/ scale combination. I never knew....Lionel had it going on !!! Never heard of Lionel 00. The quality and detail is very impressive. THe technology existed, but they were trying to read the market ! Paul
And unfortunatly they read it wrong. HO was the place to be, OO was a local thing to Josh Cowen. The NY/NJ area was a hotbed for OO at that time. Along with J.L. being a wee bit jellious or envious of Donnelly's Scale Craft line. Lionel wanted into the scale world on all levels. On the flip side, what Lionel did make is absolutly beautiful and much more affordable than a prewar 700e. Full sets can be had for under $700 with some careful shopping and with Gargraves making track, one can atleast have a simple loop of OO. Now if enough folks pester Ross Custom Switches, maybe they will rethink doing some 2 or even 3 rail switches to match the gargraves track. I would be up for atleast 2 pairs of LH and RH switches. With what the original Lionel ones they did make for 3 rail only go for when they do show up for sale. One would think a small run of them or even just made to order would be viable for a custom switch builder. Mike
One thing to consider is what American Flyer were doing at the time...
AF had one O scale locomotive, the USRA switcher, (seen in the AF thread), but switched to 1:64 on O gauge track for their main production and produced a line in HO as well. It might be worth noting that AF had an NYC Hudson in O (missing a leading truck axle, but clearly an NYC Hudson) as well as in 1:64 and HO.
Lionel had trumped AF in O gauge with the 700E (and the simplified 763). Perhaps by going to OO they had an offering that could compete with both 1:64 on O and HO being half way between the two AF lines.
It is interesting to compare Lionel with Maerklin in Germany. Maerklin had three main lines in 1939, 1 gauge, O gauge and what they called OO (on 16.5mm gauge). The same models were available in each gauge, with the Class 01 Pacific (and the Swiss Ce6/8 crocodile) being the top of the line with the range going down to simple 0-4-0 toy locomotives in each scale, All scales were three rail. After the war, which was somewhat more serious in Germany, Maerklin only made their OO range which was then called HO although many of the models carried over were closer to 1:76 in scale.
After WWII, AF went to S gauge and two rail, which may have been their plan all along, and kept up and expanded their HO line.
Lionel, as we all know kept up O gauge but introduced a number of new diecast locomotives, some suitable for O27, which had more in common with the prewar AF 1:64 models than the Scale O represented by the Hudson and B6sb.
O27 gave a compact layout in much the same space as Lionel OO but with a direct path to conventional O Gauge. The PRR S2 Turbine provded a recognisable model if a long way from any scale representation.
I think that Lionel looked at the Prewar AF range and to some extent replicated that, although the simplified Hudson was still available from time to time as the 773. The fact that OO was not expanded prior to WWII, to the extent there were no passenger cars at all, bears this out.
AF HO had only one locomotive (a J3a rather than a J1e) but had the two Pullman Standard streamlined passenger cars as well as basic freight cars. Of course there were other products from other manufacturers in HO to a greater extent than in OO although both Lionel and AF probably wanted to provide a whole range themselves.
Peter
I think that had WWII not interupted OO production, Lionel would have cloned the Scale Craft car as they did with the rolling stock, I kn6ow Lionel had prototypes of 2 rail track switches that never made it into production. I am sure they had other things in OO planned. But a world war combined with what was probably a quick fall off in OO scales as HO took off just before the war, put an end to that project. I believe a sharp rise in cost to produce the 700e has been quoted as the reason it and the B6 did not return after the war. Mike the Aspie
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