Wiring a two train layout with a KW transformer

[Anonymous]

I am trying to in vain to get this to work, I think I may need Wiring for Dummies if there is such a thing. HELP

[ben10ben]

Each loop's outer rail should be connected to one of the U posts. One loop should be connected to the terminal marked A, and the other to the terminal marked B. The handle marked A will control the loop connected to the terminal marked A, and the B handle likewise. You need not worry about the other two terminals unless you are planning on connecting acessories at fixed voltage.

[spankybird]

Just one more note, the U post should go to the outside rails and the A or B post should go to the center rail.

BTW - weclome to the CTT forum

tom

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by spankybird

Just one more note, the U post should go to the outside rails and the A or B post should go to the center rail.

BTW - weclome to the CTT forum

tom

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the replies, you say the Ushould go to outside rails & A or B to the center rails, is this a regular lockon hookup ?

[ChiefEagles]

rozy, email me and I'll email you the manual for the KW.

[Anonymous]

To Chief Eagles,I have the KW manual thanks for your offer. Maybe I should mention the layout is all connected,not two seperate,does this make a difference?

[spankybird]

Hi Rozy, yes it sould be that way with a regualer lockon hook up.

If the two loops are connected, the where they join should have a fiber insluation pin in the center rail

tom

[Anonymous]

Personaly I think the KW is way over rated. It is only a 180 watts and does not do well with two trains at the same time. If you are looking for brute power and do not need a whistle the old Z is the best one lionel ever made. First of all you have the full 25 volts to work with as 5 volts are not taped off for the whistle control and there is lots of air space in them so they do not get hot like the ZW does.
They make a super supply for command contorl whether it is Lionel or MTH DCS.
They are even gutizer than the MTH Z4000 as far as duralibilty and hefty output.
I picked up quite a few over the years when no one wanted them because of no whistle control, but now with command control I only have one left for sale.
They are all now busy supplying juice for command layouts.
Dave.

[ChiefEagles]

Dave. I have 2 KW's and I use only one and I run two PS2's and two conventionals at the same time through the TIU. Have run two PS2's and three separate conventionals strapped to one EUnit. No problem.



The 4 CN UBoats [3 powered pushing a dummy] are running about 80 scale MPH pulling a good load and the two SD90's are running about 50 sacle MPH with load.



The 4 CN UBoats conventional and the 2 NS DS90's lashed in PS2. All off of the same KW. [= 3 AC Lionel Pullmor motors and 4 MTH can motors]

I do agree the Z is best. Will probably buy one in the future. But the KW is a great unit.

[Anonymous]

I am attempting this same setup and I think, followed the printed instructions that came with the KW transformer. The inner loop operates great, but the outer loop is dead.

Any suggestions?

[ChiefEagles]

Check wiring. Put a lamp across the outer rail and inner rail. I use a volt meter. Sounds like you do not have connections to the outter loop. Got a lockon on it? I solder to my rails. Using different transformer handle for this loop? If so, got that side connected right? U is common ground for those transformers [goes to outer rails on both loops]. Insulating pin goes in center rail dividing the loops [I usually do mine at the switch going from outer loop to inner loop but you can put it anywhere as long as it separates].

[lionelsoni]

If you have two switches butted together to make a crossover between the loops, you might have interrupted the outside-rail side of the circuit at that point. This happens because there can be an insulating pin for the anti-derailing feature on both outside rails, which leaves no way for the two loops to have a common outside-rail path to the transformer. If this is the case, the simplest solution is to make separate connections to the outside rails of both loops, whether using lock-ons or solder.

[Anonymous]

ChiefEagles,

Thanks for the response.

I did what you suggested and found I was not getting any power to the outside loop. I did have a lockon on the outer loop, but according to instructions, I only ran wire from the transformer to #1 of the lockon. I then tried coming out from the other U terminal and connecting it to the #2 of the outside lockon. Surprisingly this worked and I was able to run and control both trains as advertised.

Now have a problem with the turnouts automatically switching, where the turnouts are butted up against each other at the spot where the outside and inner loops meet when the an engine comes into that intersection. Even when standing there and manually holding the lever on the switch, there is still a force trying to move the switch in the direction I do not want it to go.

Is this just a matter of not having or having the wrong type of pin at this junction?

Thanks - Walt

[Anonymous]

Bob,

Thanks for the response. Your accessment is dead-on, there are switches at the top and bottom of the layout where the loops intersect. Could you give me more detail on how to separate the connections to the outside rails using a lockon? After many years of storing my collection and now just trying to setup a layout, I have found my recollections on how to do these type of things is sorely lacking.

Thanks - Walt

[lionelsoni]

Those control rails on the switch that perform the anti-derailing function do need to be insulated. This means that you should have insulating pins in all three rails where the switches are butted together. If you put a steel pin in the outside rail at that point, the switch thinks that there is a train on that track and keeps trying to throw the switch for the crossover.

With insulating pins in all three rails at each crossover, you can see that you have to connect both center and outside rails to the transformer from each loop, which it seems you have already done.

What kind of track and switches are you using? How are the switches arranged? Both diverging routes butted together, or what? This information might be helpful if you still have problems.

By the way, it can be handy to wire the two switches of a crossover to the same controller, since you will always want them to switch at the same time. Doing this will also interconnect their anti-derailing operation; so a train on one loop can actually sometimes align the switches to avoid a collision with a train going the same direction on the other loop.

[Anonymous]

When you are all set and done with the KW ,I will bet you will not get a full 18 volts to both tracks with trains on each one. I have a mint one and will show a full 20 volts with no load. Put on 8 lionel heavy weights with four 1445 bulbs in each car and a command lionel steamer all it will give me on the one track is 16.5 volts. The current draw at speed via my fluke meter in series is 6.5 amps. The KW should supply 8 amps ideal but doesn;t.
A ZW on the same track will give 18 volts max and that is rated at 275 watts and 20 volts.
If the mfgs are going to keep putting in high current automotive lamps in passenger cars, the transformers are going to have to keep getting bigger.
If you use a kw with some modern low current engines and no lighting in the cars, yes you can run two trains but not at command voltage.
I recently sold a 9 car passenger MTH UP passenger train to a friend and he is using a lionel 180 watt lionel brick. He can only run 6 cars plus engine in command without tripping the circuit breaker.
I sold him one of my spare Z's and he has no trouble with getting 18 volts and all 9 cars and engine in command.
I am not trying to say the KW is bad, it just is not worth 100 bucks if you are going to run passenger trains.
Get something with power, a Z or a MTH Z4000 but not a KW.
Dave.

[Anonymous]

Bob,

That did it!!!!

Thanks very much for your help and patience.

Walt

[Anonymous]

Dave,

Thanks for the advice. Wish had known about this forum before trying to resurrect my train layout.

Thanks - Walt

[ChiefEagles]

Dave, I love you buddy but the voltages do not drop that much. I have two K's. The pictures above are really pulling on just one. All those motors and still plenty of voltage. Now I will give you this. A Z is better than a K. But, a K is really a good transformer. I used my old one in the late 70's and early 80's on a monster layout. Ran numberous trains lashed together [used the same EUnit for each lash up] and that one ran those pullmor motors and lighted cars fine. Reason I got the new one was it was new and never been used. I'll probably go to a Z this year [when I get some extra $$$].

[Anonymous]

My KW must be a dud then. But if a lionel 180 watt brick trips on 9 mth lighted passenger cars and the KW is rated at 180 watts wouldn't it trip the same if it had a fast circuit breaker. Also his engine has oddsey and needs 18 volts.
The other thing that maybe is in play here is that you do not need 18 volts to run those diesels or they would fly off the layout. I used to have two lionel sd 40's on one kw main and two gp9's on the other (mpc engines) and I had both throttles wide open and they went plenty fast.
The secret must be in supply ing the 18 volts at rated amps that command requires so much more juice. I never paid any attention to the voltage of the kw when running the mpc engines as they went fast enough the way it was.
I have one lionel steamer on one of the command mains and without 18 volts it will not smoke worth a damn.
Chief, just to humor an old fool, put a current meter on one of your heavest trains and see what it shows when you are wide open, and also what is the voltage.
I do know that with the advent of oddsey and cruise control more current is need too to keep the speed steady.
Dave.

[ChiefEagles]

Dave, will do. Running the "power" through fast acting circuit breakers and then TIU. Do you "recon" the TIU is "beefing" the voltages back up? Both handles are at 18V unless I run old conventional [like the CN Uboats above] Then I vary the one handle they are on. I have run them on variable in and variable out and used remote too with no problems.



This is when I had everything in one loop. Now I am feeding from both sides of the K and feeding two separate circuits into the Fixed sides of the TIU and out to the two separate loops. [outer loop of the pictures of trains is one loop, inner two loops and sidings are the other loop]

[Anonymous]

Are you getting 18 volts on the track when the train is running? I know I can run at a lot less voltage if I don't care about smoke or super fast speed.
I am using lionel command so do not know anything about DCS. I do know that the cruise sucks up some power as it has to have a reserve voltage to boost voltage to the engine to overcome more pulling power.
Put on your heaviest load and open the transformer up and then run the train at normal speed and measure the track voltage.
I assume that MTH puts the full voltage on the track like lionel.
Dave.