MTH Smoke Output is Weak

[Anonymous]

I bought an MTH 2-8-0 RTR set for my son for Christmas. I’ve had a few RTR sets as a kid, but basically I am new to model railroading. Everything works fine except a few couplers are weak and the smoke output is anemic. It does smoke, but not like the MTH Bantam Pacific at the hobby shop that I bought the set from, and nothing like the locomotives in the MTH videos.
So I took the locomotive to the hobby shop. They put it on a DCS track and set the smoke output to max, and indeed the engine smoked heartily and I was most pleased. But that night, I put the locomotive back on her home tracks and the smoke output was just as anemic as before.
My understanding is that it should have retained its DCS settings even back in conventional mode. My suspicion is that the problem here is not with the locomotive but somewhere else. I’m using alot of RealTrax, more than half of which I bought used, a Z1000 transformer, and one lockon. Is it possible there is not enough amperage throughout the track to really get the smoke unit hot? Would adding lockons address this problem if that is indeed the case? All the lights work fine (lighted bumpers, lockon, coaches), but isn’t that mostly an indication of voltage not amperage?

[Jim Duda]

Confirm this, guys...but I think smoke output in conventional depends on TRACK VOLTAGE and you're most likely not supplying enough. In other words, if you run your train at slow to moderate speeds, you'll probably be under 12 volts. With the DCS system, you can supply 16 - 18 volts to the track, but the internal voltages supplied to the motors, sound system AND SMOKE HEATING ELEMENT, etc., are controlled by the handheld unit.

If you have a voltmeter, tell us what the track voltages are at different locations on your track when you operate at the speeds you like.

[Buckeye Riveter]

I can't help you with the smoke situation, but before you do much else, I would suggest adding another lock-on to your track on the opposite side of the track from the one lock-on you are now using in order have power in both outside tracks.

Turn the track over and look underneath and you should see what I mean. MTH RealTrax is not like the old tinplate track where the metal tie conducts the power to both outside rails. [:0]

[daan]

I think Jim Duda is right. Track voltage varies in conventional mode. Excactly as he explained. The track is ok, since the engine runs, the transformer is ok, for the same reason, and the smokeunit also works great (though on the shop tracks, digitally).
If you speed the train up, it should get better.

[spankybird]

Track voltage is part of it, but a PS2 engine won’t move until it gets at least 12 volts and run at any reasonable speed until 15 to 16 volts, which should produce good smoke.

As Buckeye suggested, check the track and maybe you need an extra feeder line. I can say that I run my Christmas layout conventional with a PS2 engine and have a lot of smoke.

How much smoke fluid have you put in the engine [?] First time running should be 30 to 40 drops and about another 10 drops for ½ running time.

What type of fluid are you using [?]

tom

[Buckeye Riveter]

Couldn't you use full power in the neutral postion to heat up the smoke unit? [?][?][?][?][?]

[spankybird]

Yes he could use fuel power in nuteral.

[Anonymous]

Does this engine have PS2 or PS1 inside.
PS1 engines are very bad smokers.

[spankybird]

I am sorry to disagree, but I have many PS1 steamers and they are great smokes. Here is one of the first RTR engines that they made



and here is another Berkshire



tom

[lionelsoni]

The track voltage and the speed are intimately related. If tinfinger's train is going as fast as he wants it to, he is able to get all the voltage he needs to the locomotive. More track voltage will inevitably make it go faster. So feeders, etc., are not needed and will not help his smoke situation.

[Anonymous]

I don’t have a voltmeter, but I don’t think they are expensive so I should probably get one.

Buckeye, I get what you are saying about the “other side” rail and will try that. However, (bear with me as I have little knowledge of electricity) I thought the center rail was the power and either side was the ground.

Daan / Buckeye / Spankybird, here’s the weird part. Practically no smoke is generated if the locomotive is still – even in neutral with the power ramped all the way up. At high speed, ¾ throttle, there is little smoke. It smokes best at ¼ throttle, kind of a walking speed, to ½ throttle, still fairly slow. Note that this was not the case on the DCS track at the shop, where at idle or at speed it put out healthy amounts of smoke.

Spankybird, on Christmas morning I put 20 drops in her. The hobby shop stated (and some others) said that was too much. I add 5-8 drops when the output drops off. She’ll blow modest smoke rings for awhile and then it will taper off. At the hobby shop, there was no attempt to drain or add fluid and it smoked like a demon. I’m using JT Mega Steam because my wife most emphatically did not care for the MTH Protosmoke fluid smell at the hobby shop.

PRRSD35, this is a PS2 engine. As noted, on the hobby shop DCS track it generated big clouds of smoke.

Lionielsoni, my son and I tend to run the train at two speeds, either ¼ throttle walking speed or ¾ throttle (pretty zippy). My son sometimes wants it to go fast, and admirably observes a parental decree of not going past ¾ throttle, and sometimes (more often) wants it to go slow – with his nose practically glued to the train and following it around.

Thanks for all the help.

[spankybird]

OK now that we are clear that it is a PS2 engine, having it sit in neutral and turning up the voltage will NOT produce any smoke. The smoke fan unit is synchronized with the turning of the wheels, no wheel turning, no smoke.

I think you are low on fluid. Try putting in 4 to 5 drops at a time. Then add another 4 to 5 drops. See if your smoke output increase. BTW – under DCS it will produce more smoke because being at 18 volts. But you should have great smoke running conventional.

Check out the JT Magasmoke. They have great scents. My wife loves the Bayberry and Christmas Pine. This is not the same as MTH fluid.

http://www.megasteam.com

Do to the fact that it smokes good under DCS, I don’t think that you have burned your wicks. Check your instructions on how to check them. It’s only a couple of screws.

tom

[Anonymous]

Tinfinger,

I also believe that this is probably voltage related and that using a voltmeter to see what voltage the other engine runs and smokes well at, vs. this engine, would be a very good idea. For that matter, you might add some heavy or lighted cars behind it. This will raise the voltage required to run it, and therefore increase the voltage to the smoke unit.

I would also remove the cover from the smoke unit and inspect the wick to see if there is any scorching. The wicks are cheap and can be replaced easiliy. A partially scorched wick might work well at full voltage under DCS, but not under the lower voltage of conventional running. It would have been interesting to see what would happen to smoke output at lower voltage under DCS.

Adding a wire to the other outside rail will not make any difference. The locomotive has all the wheels on the power outside rail to make contact.

5-8 drops is not adequate for an MTH smoke unit. This is correct for a Lionel unit, as they flood more easily.

JT's Megasteam is probably the best smoke fluid out there.

Please keep us posted.

Thank you.

[lionelsoni]

A voltmeter might be a handy thing to have; but I don't see how it can be of any help with your smoke problem. The voltage determines how fast the train goes. If you do anything to increase the voltage at the locomotive, you will have to turn it down at the transformer to keep the speed where you want it, with no net effect on the locomotive voltage nor on the smoke unit. Likewise, with the rails, if you have a reliable enough connection to the one rail that is connected, it is harmless to connect the other one, but there will be no advantage either.

If Jim Duda is right that the infernal DCS stuff in the locomotive is able to control the smoke unit's output, the fact that you can't get much smoke even with the voltage turned up all the way suggests to me that the DCS is responsible for your trouble. That doesn't mean that it is broken--it may in fact be working the way it was designed to.

[spankybird]

Here is the same type of engine that you have. The first 3 pics are running under DCS. The smoke is set at MAX and the chuff rate is set at 3 per revaluation. This is without labored smoke.




And now running the same engine, same setting conventional on my Christmas layout which is 4’ x 8’


If you look closely at the last one, you can see smoke rings.

Click on the pics to enlarge them.

As you can see, this engine has about the same smoke output no mater whether it is running on DCS or Conventional command. I really think you need to add more smoke fluid and maybe check the wick.
tom

[Anonymous]

As indicated by Tinfinger in his first post, the locomotive smoked well under full voltage when operated by DCS in the hobby store. It was only after it was taken home and run in conventional under normal track voltage that the smoke output diminished to its previous, less than satisfactory , level. The only possible way this could be related to the electronics would be if the on-board battery was not charged enough for the PS-2 board in the locomotive to remember the setting during the shut down sequence (which is when programming changes, engine i.d. # changes, etc. are stored).

I just performed a test on the effects of track voltage on smoke output using my Railking BigBoy. It is a prolific smoker equipped with PS-2 electronics.

I connected the track to one of the two variable channels of the TIU and ran the Big Boy at 5 Scale Miles Per Hour. I then backed the track voltage down to 4.9 volts (as measured with a digital voltmeter at the track). Smoke output diminished to virtually nothing. I then increased the track voltage to 18 volts. At this voltage, the locomotive manufactured its usual huge quantity of smoke. It still continued to run at 5 Scale Miles Per Hour from 4.9 to 18 volts).

No changes were made to the smoke unit settings.

Smoke output is, to a large extent, a function of track voltage. Below a certain voltage, smoke output will diminish but the locomotive will continue to run.

I will attempt to make similar tests in conventional.

[spankybird]

Hi Richard,
I have found that at around 14 volts (via the handle setting on my ZW, not a volt meter) I have good smoke when running conventional. But also most PS2 engines will not move until you have 12 volts to the track.

Here is a shot of the same engine running under DCS with labor smoke on


tom

[Anonymous]

I called MTH once but it was lunchtime and although I got a sympathetic person I promised to call back after lunchtime. Things are still a bit hectic with the holiday season and I'll have to try again next week.

I've modified my hypothesis based on my observations. At idle, even neutral at full voltage, there is almost no smoke. At full speed, very little smoke. Walking speed, it puffs decent smoke though not, I believe, up to its potential. (I wold estimate about 1/4 of the smoke displayed at the hobby shop.) I think the heating element, for reasons I'm not clear about yet, isn't getting as hot as it shoud and is being "overpowered" (that is, cooled too much) by the fan at idle and high speed.

[spankybird]

HI tinfinger,

At an idle, unless you catch the chuff synchronizing just right, the fan and heating elimates are turned off, so in neutral and full voltage, you will NOT have any smoke.

Have you tried slowing increasing the amount of smoke fluid yet [?] Unless at some point in time you have added more fluid, you have not yet provide enough to prime the smoke unit.

[Anonymous]

Tinfinger,

If the battery was not fully charged when the smoke setting was changed under DCS, the PS-2 electronics will not remember the new setting.

I have no idea if the battery was charged when the setting was changed or how much the locomotive was run first (which would charge the battery). This would affect things.