Use two rw's

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Use two rw's
Posted by stuartmit on Monday, February 12, 2018 10:10 AM

i want to use two RW transformers on my layout  to control different areas of the layout. I am having a problem.

 

first, I checked all terminals for output and that was ok on both.

i understand the need to put them in phase and can handle that.

I want to run the switch motors on constant voltage, independent of the track, as you can do 022 switches. 

 Looking at the diagram on the back of the RW I see that the a and D terminals together give you 19 V fixed. This seemed to me to be perfect for the switch machines. From this I gathered that the a terminal would be the common and  Connect to the running rails of the layout. I expected the D terminal  in one of the two transformers would connect to the constant voltage to the 022 switches. I would connect the u terminals to the center rails in the two different sections of track and also connect a wire between the a terminals on both units as you have to do when you're using two transformers  on areas of track that are connected to one another. 

When I connected the wires as I described above I found that the switch motors did not receive any power from the first RW but when I move that wire to the second RW they worked OK.  Further I found that only this second RW controlled its share  of the track; the first RW'S share of track was all dead. This I believe I can straighten out but I wonder if there is an open circuit to the track which is also open to the switch motors. I find this surprising because the D terminal condoctors for constant voltage is obviously not interrupted or else I would get nothing from the connection to either Rw

this leaves the common which can't be the problem, because the trains run on large portions of the layout 

 

so what is the solution? I think the question boils down if the d and a terminals are both showing output voltage where is the failure? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted by stuartmit on Monday, February 12, 2018 11:24 AM

Further info. I wanted to use the above setup while my zw was out. I had the zw connected and working with the u as common to running rails and the a and d levers connected to center rails. The fixed voltage to the 022’s was from the C ring 

 

On the rw setup I thought the rw d terminal could take over for the c ring to the 022 motors, the u terminals on the rw’s would go to the center rails and the a terminals of the rw’s to the running rails, with a wire tieing the a terminals together 

 

how does that seem. Maybe the linkage wire Should be u to u?

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Posted by rrswede on Monday, February 12, 2018 5:01 PM

See the following link. 

https://dfarq.homeip.net/lionel-transformer-pinouts/Lionel transformer pinouts

swede

 

 

  

         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         



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Posted by stuartmit on Monday, February 12, 2018 6:51 PM

Just read Swede’s post as Well as this article of his:

 

 

Lionel RWThis diagram shows all of the controls and the pinout for the Lionel RW transformer.

There are five posts on the back of the transformer. Post U goes to the outer rail of your track; post A or B goes to the center rail. Use Post A if you want 9-19 volts or use post B if you want 5-16 volts. What’s the difference? Post B is more useful for postwar trains and a necessity for using an RW with Marx or American Flyer trains. With Post A you could run Standard Gauge trains if you wanted. But I think the B-U combination is more useful.

For accessories, connecting posts A and D gives you about 19 volts; connecting posts B and D gives you 15 volts. Posts C and D give 10 volts. These three combinations have circuit breaker protection.

Connecting posts A-C gives 9 volts, B-C gives 6 volts, and B-A gives 3 volts. None of these combinations have circuit breaker protection, so use an external breaker if you use any of these combinations.

my question becomes if I want to use a and u for running trains, is it possible to use d for constant voltage to O22 switch motors? Maybe my desired plan wont work. 



Read more: https://dfarq.homeip.net/all-about-the-lionel-rw-transformer/#ixzz56wcZSetg

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Posted by wrmcclellan on Monday, February 12, 2018 10:21 PM

Stuart,

I agree with your original assertion that to use two RWs one must treat:

Term A (or B for 5-16 V) as common (outer rails of the track)

Term U to center rail (variable + whistle + reverse)

Term D for 19 v (using A common) or 15 v (using B as common)

Connect the two RWs together using A or B

You did not describe any possible trouble shooting like did the behavior of the first RW in your original post follow that unit if you switched them in your setup?

In other words is there an internal wiring issue with one of the RWs. Or, if the issue duplicated on the same position/RW after switching them you may have a fault in the layout wiring. You might consider doing a test setup with some spare track and switches.

The wiring diagrams of the RW and ZW can be compared and the similarity seen for use of the terminals as described.

Olsen's RW schematic http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/transfmr/psrw1.pdf

Olsen's ZW schematic http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/transfmr/psvw1.pdf

I cannot see any text in Swede's post (a lot of lines, rectangular boxes on the page on both an iPAD and Windows PC. So other than his article I do not know what he said in his post.

Maybe Lionelsoni (Bob) can shed some further light on this.

 

Regards, Roy

            

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Posted by lionelsoni on Tuesday, February 13, 2018 8:34 AM

The way Stuart wired them at first is correct, that is, both transformers' A terminals to the outside rails, each transformer's U terminal to a center rail, and one transformer's D terminal to turnouts and (with A) to accessories.

Lionel used the letter U for the common terminal of their multi-train transformers.  It should be connected to the outside rails.  They also used U (confusingly) for the center rail terminal of their single-train transformers.  This is the case for the RW.

It looks to me like the problem is that not all the connections are good.  I would troubleshoot this with a voltmeter (or even a lamp).  Connect one lead to the A terminals at the transformer and use the other lead to probe all the terminals and rails that each other transformer terminal is connected to.  For example, you should see the same voltage at the transformer's D terminal as at the fixed-voltage terminals of the turnouts.  When you get those right by fixing any bad connections, reconnect the first voltmeter lead to the transformer's D terminal and repeat the process.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by stuartmit on Wednesday, February 14, 2018 5:59 AM

Havent been back to my trains in a few days because I’ve got a winter cold and possible pneumonia. But I have the feeling I understand what needs to be done.

By the way, can you use yet another terminal along with D for lighting on some accessories, for example C,—-would that worK if bulbs were 12 volt?

 

Thinking of D as the hot leg, if you will permit that description, in what way can C serve as a low fixed voltage alternative to A?

 

why is there no indication  on the transformer back showing that you can use the B terminal with the C terminal, corresponding to the use of the A terminal with the D terminal. 

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Posted by stuartmit on Wednesday, February 14, 2018 3:39 PM

Would still appreciate answers to questions re use of the terminals but I did get scheme to work. I took everything apart and reassembled. Then all worked so somewhere must have been an open circuit or should I be more honest, probably a connection I made improperly. 

 

But please do reply.

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Posted by wrmcclellan on Wednesday, February 14, 2018 4:14 PM

Stuart,

You can get voltage from a couple of other combinations. But there are some caveats.

I do not have time to dig into this today as the schematic has to be consulted. As you understood the internal workings enough to create your scenario, you can derive from the schematic  (link I posted previously) the voltages and caveats of use of certain terminal combinations.

Example of caveats are some terminal combinations will have no circuit breaker protection and thus a short could be destructive. Certain terminal combinations would require you to make sure you do not connect the common of the accessories to the common of the track or a short will occur. And i think you understand the transformer can only put out so much power. So the more you load the accessories the less power for the trains and vice versa.

Glad you got the setup to work.

 

Regards, Roy

            

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Posted by stuartmit on Thursday, February 15, 2018 9:39 PM

Bob—just found this comment of yours from a few years ago on another discussion re 1122‘s and inadequate voltage.  I found it very very interesting:

From Bob Nelson a few years ago, i think an S transformer was involved. 

”Stop the presses!  This might do the job without any turnout modification:  Try connecting terminal U to the outside rails, A to the center rail, and C to the center wires of the controllers.  Don't connect anything to the center terminals of the turnouts.  This will give you 10-19 volts for the train and 19 volts all the time for the turnouts.”

 

havent tried it it yet but bet it works! And will be of tremendous interest. It eluded my dad 50years ago, and me too!  Pls don’t post and say it doesn’t work.

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Posted by stuartmit on Thursday, February 15, 2018 10:21 PM

I am Now reviewing my scheme from way above with Rw‘s with A terminal linked and used connected to running rails And U terminal to the center rails and D terminals to fixed voltage plugs of 022. All is working fine.

i have in the Layout 2 1122’s which are on track power.

I have read Bob Nelson‘s suggestion for independent constant voltage to 1122‘s and believe if I revised my setup to use linked U posts to connect to running rails with A terminals to center rails of different blocks of track, I could still use D to 022’s. Now following bob‘s scheme of eliminating connection of center terminals of the turnouts, I can connect D terminal also to controllers for 1122’s and they will operate on the constant voltage essentidally between terminals A and D—-19 volts. 

 

Any Flaws or short circuits here?  

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Posted by wrmcclellan on Thursday, February 15, 2018 11:44 PM

Even in 1951 Lionel recognized the issues with multiple transformers being tied to a common ground. Examine the chart at this link Where Lionel lists all the xfmrs and which terminals to use for common in multi-transformer layouts.

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/transfmr/ps6.pdf

The RW can work with the "U" terminals tied together but only if no other fixed voltages are used. Otherwise you will get internal imbalances in the secondary windings likely causing overheating of the windings and if allowed to persist will likely ruin the windings.

Note Lionel states with the chart that you can use A, B, and D as commons and have access to some or all of the fixed voltages. With A as common you will get your desired 19 volts for a fixed voltage. Note with D as a common you cannot use the U terminals.

You note everything works with A as common and have the 19 volts from A-D for the 022's.

You appear to say if you convert your 1122's to fixed voltage that you would go back to having the two U terminals as common. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying. You use the same setup with the RWs (A common, or B for max 15 volts) for the converted 1122's.

Regards, Roy

            

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Posted by stuartmit on Friday, February 16, 2018 6:16 AM

I have looked at the chart the link took me to. I Would rather, instead of label ”common or ground,” they had used the label running rails, and somewhere indicated center rail On another column.  I think that’s how a lot of us see things. So if U goes to runnng rails, does the chart indicate there is no way to use C and D?

My current scheme has D as common; if you put U as common, A as variable, is there any use for D?  If I use D for fixed voltage plugs of 022 And controllers as usual, connected to three binding posts of 022’s, what do I get in terms of operation? 

 

Then, what of Bob’s suggestion to disconnect middle terminal of 1122’s and connect that lead to D?  I wonder if Bob came up with something Lionel personnel didn’t think of or simply though would, for some reason,be two problematic to use. By the way is it the middle terminal to disconnect or the post on the end away from motor housing. It had been middle terminal on 1121 predecessor to 1122.

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Posted by wrmcclellan on Friday, February 16, 2018 8:46 AM

Stuart,

I do not know how else to describe this to you. Maybe someone else can try.

Bob, I, and Lionel (1951 notes) have stated which RW terminals can be used for track common and the conditions for use - and some risks - when multiple RWs are used with a common ground. The internal schematics have been made available to explain/justify the issue. You proved to yourself that when configured as recommended, everything worked.

You cannot do what you wish to do (U as common and use D as a fixed voltage). 

To be clear. You run a risk at the best of stressing the RW and overheating some wires and at the worst starting a fire depending on the condition of a 50+ year old piece of electrical gear.

Never leave a powered toy transformer unattended, particularly an older one.

Re the 1122. These were toys built for varying price points for the market. the 027 line was the low priced option and thus fewer features. If you want separate fixed voltage terminals for your switches, then you need to convert to the O31 track series. If you are going to attempt to modify 027 switches you are at your own risk. 

Regards, Roy

            

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Posted by stuartmit on Friday, February 16, 2018 8:55 AM

Ok. Got it. Dont enjoy burning my house down! Don’t want to have to deal with the insurance claim paperwork!

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Posted by lionelsoni on Friday, February 16, 2018 10:17 AM

Stuart, in that 2011 topic, it "turned out" that the turnouts originally described as 1122 were actually 1121.  The fact that the 1121 lacked the anti-derailing control rails was what made the unusual wiring work.  If you do that with unmodified 1122s, there will be fireworks if you operate the switch controller while a train is on one of the control rails!

Bob Nelson

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Posted by stuartmit on Friday, February 16, 2018 11:38 AM

Immediately understood. In the occasional situation you describe you will create a short circuit between two terminals at differential potentials so electricity will flow directly from one to the other, not passing through the coil.  

I will comment who would operate the controller while train was passing through the turnout but there’s no accounting for taste! 

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Posted by lionelsoni on Friday, February 16, 2018 11:46 AM

I'm sure I have done it!  I am likely to remember to throw a switch for a train, not at the last second, but just a little after the last second--no way to run a railroad!

Bob Nelson

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Posted by ADCX Rob on Friday, February 16, 2018 1:08 PM

wrmcclellan
...You cannot do what you wish to do (U as common and use D as a fixed voltage)...

Here is the result with using "U" as common - every time you hit the whistle button the DC signal will go to all trains, accessories & switches, & every time you hit the direction button all trains, accessories & switches will shut off.

Rob

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Posted by alank on Friday, February 16, 2018 6:38 PM

Staurt,

      Thanks for bringing up the subject of 2 RW transformers.   I don't have any experience with RWs, but have a good assortment of Lionel Transformers, and like to think about wiring and Lionel Trains.   You brought the big guys out with Bob Nelson, Rob and others.  You even got Roger Carp in there.   Feel like I am back to work and the electrons are flowing....Solve one problem at a time, get your trains running first.   If you want to use modified switches for the capacatitive  discharge reason or some other reason, solve that problem after you get the layout running without modified switches.   It is good to see the interaction and help today.   Good luck with your trains.

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