Identifying Locomotive for Set

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Identifying Locomotive for Set
Posted by jwpatrick on Monday, July 24, 2017 6:30 PM

I hope someone here can help. I have a Lionel Train Set that my Dad gave me when I was a young kid.  Somewhere along the line the DIESEL Locomotive had issues and my Mother was of the belief if something didn't work it was trash and discarded it.Sigh  I'm now trying to find out what Locomotive originally came with the set.  Unfortunately my memory is no help.  After 48 years they all start looking familiar  I have all the cars that were part of it but researching references such as Doyle's has provided little.  Initially I thought it was 1962 or 63 based on the Cherry Picker but finding no sets with these cars throught the 60s I've settled on it possibly being a 1967 set that included whatever Lionel could find left over to stuff a box. Confused  I have ...........

#6059 Minneapolis & St Louis Caboose (Var B) (1961-69)

#6560 B.E. Crane Car (1955-64) & (1966-69)

#6512 (6511-2 mold for car) Cherry Picker Car w/ Astronaut (1962-1963)

#6062 (Type 2b) NYC Gondola Car w/ 3 Orange Cable Reels (1960)

Type 1063-100 Transformer w/ GREEN button (1960-64)

Sorry for the length but wanted to provide as much detail as possible.  Any help is appreciated.  Saw some out of print books that might hold an answer but hated to spend $80 to find out 1967 info was a blank page...  Thanks

 

 

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Posted by BigAl 956 on Tuesday, July 25, 2017 1:28 PM

Your preliminary research appears valid in that you have a Mich Mache of cars from the early mid 1960s. Not Lionels greatest era unfortunately. It's also possible your 'set' came from a deptarment store like Sears who often made special purchases of leftover stock for thier holiday set offerings.

Since Lionel did not produce a lot of new stuff in that era it may be possible to narrow your possibilities down by process of elimination.

You know for sure it was a deisel, can you remember the roadname or color? If you can just recall a couple details we can check the postwar guide for the time frame and see what was available at the time that might match.

Good luck,

 

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Posted by robmcc on Tuesday, July 25, 2017 2:55 PM

I was thinking along the same line as Big Al. It does seem like a random mix that usually came as an uncataloged department store set.  The closest I could find as a possible match was the 11288 Orbitor Diesel Freight from 1962. It had the M&St.L caboose and the Cherry Picker car you have, but also included the Mercury capsule launching and carrying cars and a rocket fuel car. It was powered with a M&St.L Alco AB diesel set. That might be your best bet for a locomotive. The gondola was used in other sets and I couldn't find anything in my references that the Bucyrus Erie crane car was used in any 1960's sets.

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Posted by jwpatrick on Tuesday, July 25, 2017 5:41 PM

BigAl 956

Your preliminary research appears valid in that you have a Mich Mache of cars from the early mid 1960s. Not Lionels greatest era unfortunately. It's also possible your 'set' came from a deptarment store like Sears who often made special purchases of leftover stock for thier holiday set offerings.

Since Lionel did not produce a lot of new stuff in that era it may be possible to narrow your possibilities down by process of elimination.

You know for sure it was a deisel, can you remember the roadname or color? If you can just recall a couple details we can check the postwar guide for the time frame and see what was available at the time that might match.

Good luck,

 

 

Thanks for your response.  It would appear you're correct.  The set came from Santa (Howard Griffin Land-O-Toys, Monroe, La.)  My memory is not strong on this Locomotive.  I'm fairly certain it was a Diesel Switcher.  May have been black, but I don't know if I've spoiled the "memory pot" by my research on the color, or I actually remember it that color.  I do remember it had a whistle and headlight.  Pretty sure it had an ornamental bell and horn.  All this seems to lead to the 617 Santa Fe Switcher.  That seems odd to me since it was only produced in '63 and it wouldn't seem they had extras just waiting to go in my box.  That also makes it more difficult now because they were a limited run.  I've also considered the 616 but I don't think it came with the horn and bell. My set came in a solid orange box.  After researching these things for a while, black starts out looking right, then blue begins to take over, then black again.  I know it wasn't yellow, and 85 or so percent sure it wasn't red and it had nothing to do with Hogwarts. Confused If I can't be certain from any documentation, I'll probably just pick one and live with the choice.  I do appreciate your input.  It is really only important to me for nostalgia as I get older and consider passing it down to my kids.  Thanks again.

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Posted by jwpatrick on Tuesday, July 25, 2017 5:44 PM

robmcc

I was thinking along the same line as Big Al. It does seem like a random mix that usually came as an uncataloged department store set.  The closest I could find as a possible match was the 11288 Orbitor Diesel Freight from 1962. It had the M&St.L caboose and the Cherry Picker car you have, but also included the Mercury capsule launching and carrying cars and a rocket fuel car. It was powered with a M&St.L Alco AB diesel set. That might be your best bet for a locomotive. The gondola was used in other sets and I couldn't find anything in my references that the Bucyrus Erie crane car was used in any 1960's sets.

 

Thanks for the response.  Sadly, I agree with both of you.  I might have reached the end of the Internet on this mystery.  I appreciate you taking the time to help.

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Posted by BigAl 956 on Wednesday, July 26, 2017 2:11 PM

jwpatrick
That seems odd to me since it was only produced in '63 and it wouldn't seem they had extras just waiting to go in my box.

You just stumbled onto Lionels problem. By the mid 1960s sales were very bad and it's very possible they indeed had lots of extras to throw into the box. When it came to department store offerings it was a great way to dispose of leftover stock.

 

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Posted by Penny Trains on Wednesday, July 26, 2017 6:22 PM

Big Al is right.  Lionel frequently offered unsold stock both in and out of the catalogs.  My first set was a 1965 scout set that was sold only at J.C. Penney stores.  There were similar sets in the catalog, but not exactly the same.  You're on the right track though, the books and online auction sites are a great way to stimulate the gray matter.  I've rediscovered many things that were only a vague memory and said "so that's what that was!"  Big Smile

Welcome aboard!  We have a lot of fun around here!

Becky

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Posted by teledoc on Thursday, July 27, 2017 6:26 AM

Your set was a "Special Purchase", made for Sears Roebuck, in 1962, sold in 1963 as uncataloged set.  The number is Set 19318, with ONLY 100 made, which makes it a RARE SET.  The diesel is the 617X-1, with dual magne-traction & 3 pos. E unit.  What makes it Rare is 1 additional item of a cardboard Station with tunnel, which I think is #980-10.  This is from "The Authoritive Guide to Promotional Sets, 1960-1969, by J.W. Schmid.  THERE ARE NO OTHER SETS WITH YOUR LIST!!! 

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Posted by jwpatrick on Friday, July 28, 2017 4:50 AM

teledoc

Your set was a "Special Purchase", made for Sears Roebuck, in 1962, sold in 1963 as uncataloged set.  The number is Set 19318, with ONLY 100 made, which makes it a RARE SET.  The diesel is the 617X-1, with dual magne-traction & 3 pos. E unit.  What makes it Rare is 1 additional item of a cardboard Station with tunnel, which I think is #980-10.  This is from "The Authoritive Guide to Promotional Sets, 1960-1969, by J.W. Schmid.  THERE ARE NO OTHER SETS WITH YOUR LIST!!! 

 

Thanks for all the responses.  The revelation it was a Sears set clears up a lot.  Looking back, my Dad took it to Howard Griffin's to have it repaired and  I wrongly assumed later in life that's where it had come from originally.  Apparently Santa had actually shopped at Sears, just like my parents were known to do.  Although I had convinced myself 1967 fit all the evidence better because of the lack of documentation.  It all seemed to point to the "year of darkness" for Lionel... 1967.  The actual year, 1963 better fits my memory and makes sense now. Thank you so much for clearing it up.  It is all about nostalgia for me and you've provided me with information that allows me to complete the set knowing it is just like it was when I first got it.  The responses from all were great and much appreciated. 

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Posted by teledoc on Friday, July 28, 2017 11:29 AM

Jwpatrick, If you want to know exactly everything that is included in the Set, contact me via my email address.  I have the book, listing your Set, which has all the items listed.  It is lengthy, so I prefer not to list it all here.  The RARE and hard to find item would be the 980-10 Scenic Station W/Tunnel (Cardboard), that only came in this set, but packaged separately to Dealers, who had to add it to the Set, later.  Click on my screename, and to the right of page, you will find my email address.

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Posted by jwpatrick on Saturday, August 05, 2017 5:22 PM

Using the information those on this Forum provided I went looking for a Lionel #617 Switcher.  I thought I was in luck and located one on eBay, purchased it and got it in.  It looked great but I was more excited to test it.  To my relief it moved forwards and backwards on my quickly put together test track.  I noticed the light didn't work but no big deal.  I could get a replacement bulb.  The horn also was silent. I've read where sometimes it might just be a wire so no big deal.  I anxiously pulled the shell off to try and begin the process of determining how much effort these would involve.

You can imagine my shock when I looked inside.... to find no light or horn mechanism.  In fact, there was every indication it never had them.  The location of the e-unit cutout and positioning was such that an original horn unit wouldn't have fit even if there was curouts and tabs.  (As soon as I learn how to add a picture, I'll include one.)  Hmm

Since everywhere I read, the 617 came with these as standard equipment, I concluded that the chassis is from another model and the shell from a 617.  Needless to say it's on it's way back to the seller.  It seems now from our exchange, he was aware of it and felt as long as it had the shell that was the most important thing.  Huh?  I am a novice and maybe this is common in the "train world", but if I pay a good price I actually expect it to be the real item.  In my simple thinking, putting a Stingray body on a Volkswagon will never make it a Corvette.

It doesn't matter for this but in looking at the chassis, I found nothing to tell me what it was from.  I'm posting for the future... are there identifiers such as numbers, to know what chassis this or others actually are?

Thanks for any input.

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Posted by jwpatrick on Saturday, August 05, 2017 5:53 PM
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Posted by lionelsoni on Saturday, August 05, 2017 8:29 PM

I don't know what "pics" you're trying to show; but I just got a lot of nonsense when I clicked on that, and no way out but to close the forum.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by rtraincollector on Saturday, August 05, 2017 8:56 PM

unless you are a paying account at photobucket you can not use them as a host site to have pics on forums. They changed there rules about a month or so ago

 

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Posted by jwpatrick on Saturday, August 05, 2017 9:35 PM

Apparently I'm a novice in pics also. Oops - Sign  Apparently my reading the forum guidance on pics didn't translate into understanding.  Will work on it.

In the meantime ignore my pics post.  How about instead using the "Think System" from the Music Man?  Just pretend they are there and they show a chassis with a motor and e-unit.. Nothing more except a "from the factory" blank canvas.  Sorry.  I guess the old saying.. You can't get there from here,  was written for me.

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Posted by jwpatrick on Sunday, August 06, 2017 9:22 AM

If at first you don't succeed...

A. Try, try, again. Thumbs Up

B.  Realize you've exceeded your limitations and give up. Lightning

We'll see after this which it is...

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Posted by Penny Trains on Sunday, August 06, 2017 7:00 PM

Mouse over your photo.  Right click.  Choose "Copy Image Location".  Then paste what it gives you into the "Source" box that comes up after you click on the "Insert/Edit Image" icon.  Should look like this:

You can mouse over the photo here and right click on it to see the "Copy Image Location" function.

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Posted by jwpatrick on Sunday, August 06, 2017 11:10 PM

Penny Trains

Mouse over your photo.  Right click.  Choose "Copy Image Location".  Then paste what it gives you into the "Source" box that comes up after you click on the "Insert/Edit Image" icon.  Should look like this:

You can mouse over the photo here and right click on it to see the "Copy Image Location" function.

 

Thanks... now that I've embarrassed myself.. any ideas on how to identify a chassis that most probably isn't the original?

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Posted by cwburfle on Monday, August 07, 2017 12:08 PM

Well, most of the 610 Eries had a black frame and no headlight.
Hard to tell from the photos, I think your frame was repainted.

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Posted by teledoc on Monday, August 07, 2017 3:23 PM

JW, Keep looking for a legitimate 617, but make sure you ask the seller if it has a horn, and an operating headlight.  If the answer is NO, then the body and frame have been swapped, as was the case of the one you had.  It is imperative to ask the seller questions, before bidding, unless the condition of the body is C-7 or better, and the price is LOW enough.  For some reason, the NW-2 switchers are getting fairly high prices, so be cautious.

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Posted by alank on Monday, August 07, 2017 3:25 PM

I would think it is either a 600 or 610 frame.   They were the only 2 without the simulated feul tanks.   There is no screw hole for mounting them so that is why I choose those 2.  The working couplers were also on those 2 engines.

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Posted by jwpatrick on Monday, August 07, 2017 4:57 PM

Good advice.  I guess I could see it from anow individual seller, but this is a dealer who runs a brick & mortar shop.  I thought it was one that got by him but after discussing... he saw no problem with a swapped chassis.   Just not the way I was raised.  To me it's no different than swapping price tags in a store to get a cheap price on an expensive item. Anyway, thanks to eBay, I won't be out any money on this one.  I'll be shipping it back tomorrow on the sellers dime and receive a full refund.  That was why I asked if there are identifiers on a chassis to ensure authenticity.   Apparently there isn't.  Thanks to everyone on here for all the advice/ answers to my questions.

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Posted by jwpatrick on Monday, August 07, 2017 5:05 PM

The 600 / 610 seems to fit.  I guess I'm just surprised a Lionel dealer would do this.  Guess I've been in the wrong business all these years. Thanks to all for the assistance. Lesson learned.  Great forum by the way.  Very responsive and knowledgeable members.

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Posted by cwburfle on Monday, August 07, 2017 5:51 PM

The 600 / 610 seems to fit.  I guess I'm just surprised a Lionel dealer would do this.

Unfortunately, you cannot trust anybody. There are plenty of brick and morter stores that would do the same. If you want something to be original, you have to know what you are looking at. Some resellers may not even know the piece wasn't correct.

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