Proto 1 vs 2

[Anonymous]

I am currently building a larg layout ( 44 linear feet of track) for my son. He has an MTH starter set with a steam engine.

He wants a "freight deisel" boy are these engines expensive. I have found some new MTH proto 1 engines for half of proto 2. Whats the story?

[wrmcclellan]

Bosgood,

MTH Proto 1 locos are set up for sound and conventional control only (e.g. forward - neutral - reverse with the transformer cycling power to the track).

MTH Proto 2 locos have the Digital Command System wireless control feature, using a handheld for control and features. Proto 2 locos also work fine with traditional forward - neutral - reverse with the transformer cycling power to the track (e.g. no remote control units required).

Also, MTH no longer manufactures Proto 1 units - so many Proto 1 items are being sold at a nice discount.

If you purchase a new Proto 1 product - make sure the Battery is able to be charged and can hold a charge (this means placing it on a powered track in neutral and letting it charge all night - see MTH instructions). As many Proto 1 units are several years old - the battery may need replacing regardless ($10-$14 - no big deal).

Be aware that a failed battery in a Proto1 unit can severely damage or scramble (thus a trip to the repair shop) the Proto 1 electronics - disabling the engine.

I recommend an MTH replacement battery, but Radio Shack also makes an appropriate battery (must be an 8.4 volt Ni-Cad or Ni-Mh). But be aware that the RS batteries have a metal case and the MTH batteries have a plastic case. The issue being if it comes loose inside your engine, one does not wi***o have a metal object rattling around that could short out and damage something in the electronics.

The Radio Shack PN for the Ni-CAd is 23-448. You may also wi***o get a charger (make sure it is an appropriate charger for both Ni-Cad or Ni-Mh). Be aware that Sears and other retailers also sell "9v" Ni-CAds or Ni-Mhs, but they are not appropriate as they have one less cell and the voltage can fall to 7 volts which is bad news for MTH Proto 1 electronics. It must be an 8.4 volt capable battery.

Regards,
Roy

[Anonymous]

I second everything that Roy said.

Proto 1 electronics were designed for MTH by QSI. I am not sure, but I think the earlier ones may have actually been supplied by QSI. They are occasionally prone to failure when one attempts to operate them with a dead or weak battery (as Roy pointed out). I no longer purchase PS-1 locomotives, but have 9 or so and have had no problems with them (I have found them to be quite reliable). I have done what Roy recommended and replaced all the batteries with 8.4 volt Nimh batteries.

PS-2 electronics are entirely different. They were designed by MTH to be used in conjunction with the DCS control system. That being said, they have outstanding performance in conventional mode. They are not prone to battery/scrambling issues of their QSI designed predecessors (although they do require a battery or, for the latest versions two AA nicad batteries) in order to function.

PS-2 electronics have much improved sound, superior sychronized puffing smoke (on steam locomotives), cruise/speed control superior to any other on the market, and the ability to be operated in "command" mode through DCS.

[wrmcclellan]

Bosgood,

Something else we should add. If you ever shelve your Proto 1 units for any length of time, the first thing to do is to remove the battery and put it into a separate charger and get it charged and make sure it holds the charge. If not, get a fresh battery.

If you shelve a Proto 1 for a short period, before running it, put it on the track and let it charge up for an hour or two before operating it (they come up in neutral - so put the transformer up to 16-18 volts and leave it there). If you are not going to run it a lot, then charge it before you store it again.

We do not mean to sound overly cautious here. These are good rules to follow to ensure your Proto 1 electronics last as long as possible without being messed up by the battery. These rules really apply to any rechargeable battery product. Proto 1 is just a little more sensitve to low voltage.

Regards,
Roy

[spankybird]

I am one who owns many MTH PS1 and PS2 and Lionel engines. Click on my web icon to get an idea.

If it would come to a chose of PS1 over PS2, I would spend the extra money on the PS2.

I have found several PS2 engines, new in the box at $200.00. You just have to look around. You can’t beat a fully command controlled engine for $200.00.

tom

[3railguy]

If you and your son are just starting out, expense is an issue, and have no near future plans for a command control system such as DCS, a PS-1 engine at a greatly reduced price should serve you well. The battery concerns that others have posted is a good reason to test the engine before purchasing. MTH is offering hybrid PS-2 upgrade kits if you do add command control in the future. I should note you can run a stock PS-1 engine with MTH's DCS or Lionel's TMCC control system in "conventional mode" where the controller adjusts track voltage verses a reciever in the engine that controls constant track voltage to the motor.

[Anonymous]

As a qsi dealer and authorized repair station the following is recommended by myself and verified in a conversation with Fred Seversen head honcho at qsi.
I put in all alkline batterys in my qsi engines. The charger output of 15 milliamps does not harm the batteries and they will last a lifetime without going dead on you.
Even if you get a new recharged battery, if it has sat around for acouple of months it will be low on charge and if it gets below 8.7 volts will start giving you trouble.
Also if you use pfa allot, turn up the voltage above 9 volts so the charger takes over or you are draining the battery. It takes that much to keep the charge from going out of the battery.
Dave Roxin.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all the great information and bringing me up to date the topic.

Expense is a factor at this time because we are already spending a ton on track, signals buildings and bridges.

[Anonymous]

For Dave Roxin:

Please help me be absolutely certain that I have this straight. For years we have been told that it was dangerous to try to recharge "non-rechargeable" batteries. (Let's stay away from the fact that special "rechargeable alkaline batteries" now exist.)

If we confine this discussion to standard, everyday, garden variety, non-rechargeable alkalines, you seem to be saying that the on-board chargers in Protosounds I loco/tenders put out such a tiny little trickle, even at 16 or more volts, that they will not affect the battery. This is important, because I really don't want to have one explode in the tender!

Is this what you are saying?

Thank you for any clarification you or anyone else can offer.

[Anonymous]

Wolverine,

Although Dave quoted the gentleman who, I think, was the designer of the system, I also still have issues with the suggestion to use dry cells-not from an explosion standpoint though...

I would opt for 8.4 volt Nimh batteries. They work well, do not have the "memory" issues associated with Nicads, and will probably only have be replaced once every five years or so, assuming that you run your locomotives, at least periodically. If in doubt, like after a very long period of storage, you might want to remove them and recharge them. After five years I would discard them.

I would not want to have to take a locomotive apart and add a battery every time I took it off the shelf to run it, nor to take it apart to remove the battery after I was finished. Likewise, I would not want to leave a normal drycell in my locomotive for any period of time, where it might corrode (remember those corroded Post-War diesels that show up at train shows?).

Just my two cents...

[spankybird]

I also have to agree with RAK.

I would NEVER use a dry cell in a PS1 engine except for testing. Even if the battery does not explode, what about it leaking.

Why take a chance over a couple of dollar item for an engine that cost hundreds of dollars.

Here is a link for NiMh batterys

http://thomas-distributing.com/ap-200-1.htm

or you can eliminate the battery by replacing it with a BRC unit, here is there link

http://www.jandwelectronics.com

tom

[Anonymous]

Yes, Fred Seversen is the man who desigined QSI #1. Protosounds 1 came after. Mike Wolf wanted a sound system, but wanted it cheap, so QSI came up with protosounds 1. It is a two board system, reverse unit, power supply and coil coupler are all on one board and the top board is the same minus a few parts that a QSI 3 board system has.
I you remember how cheap the 1st proto 1 was, you had to lift the engine off the track to find the little switch that would turn it off.
The 3 board system always did right from the start turn itself off.
Anyway the systems advanced to the 3000 which has virtually all of the special sounds that proto 2 has.
Then when MTH went elsewhere to have proto 2 designed, QSI went in HO with the DCC system and added sound to it. They are doing very well now with Broadway LTD, Lionel, Atlas, and Life like using their command systems.
Now the power supply. It is a regulated unit, so its charging system either one puts out a max of 16 milliamps. That is 16 millionths of an amp.
According to fred this will do no damage to the system or battery.
I have an enginergizer in my williams big boy that got a qsi system in 1993 and the same battery is still in it. I has ran for 11 years with the same battery and no problems.
I have had sound systems in for service that have rechargable batteries in them that have exploded. Some one left the engine on at 12 volts for over a week and couldn;t figure out what happened.
It is up to you what you use but if the battery gets below 8.7 volts you will notice the sound system cutting in and out. That is time for a charge or replacement.
It is best if you take the battery out and charge it in a 9 volt charger.
Best yet, get the everyready 9 volt that can be charged if you are in doubt.