Help with some 1121 switches?

[Dave Farquhar]

I'm hoping some of the more knowledgeable members of the board (ben10ben can probably fix these in his sleep) will be able to help me with this.

I've got a pile of (3) 1121 switches. They seem to have shorts in them. I believe this because when I hook them up to a Lionel CW-80 transformer, the green light blinks on and off like it does when a train derails.

The solenoids seem to be perfect, because when I apply power to the middle stud and one of the outers, the switch activates. With my switches that work, applying power to the studs only causes the lamp to light. In fact the solenoids seem stronger than on my operable 1121s--they fire at much lower voltage--which makes me all the more eager to get these going.

Can anyone give some advice on what to try next to isolate the problem? Is there a decent way to locate where the short might be? Or have I misdiagnosed the problem?

I'm comfortable enough with soldering and splicing wires and stuff like that, but having never disassembled an 1121 (or any other Lionel switch for that matter), and having never seen the insides of a perfect one, I'm a little uncomfortable just tearing into one and messing around. I'm just hoping to bring them back to operable condition; I'm not looking to do a historically accurate restoration or anything. The 1121 is the best switch for what I want to do--fat-gear Marx and AF locomotives go through it--so replacing them with recent K-Lines isn't an option for me.

Thanks,

[Anonymous]

Dave; The 1121 is one of my favorites too, there isn't much to check on these so a repair should be fairly simple.
There is a center rail tap running from the rivet in the swivel rail to a connection between the two coils, The center post on the switch motor itself is the ground terminal so all your doing when you through this switch is making a connection between the outside of either coil to ground.
Chances are there may be a short in or around the rivet or between the coils and the rivet.
The only other thing I can think of is make sure the insulators on the center rails are not wore out or cracked, The only other hot wire you'll have is to the back of the light inside the switch itself so you might want to chech that too, That wire should be on the center of the socket not on the side!
Before You take the switch appart I'd try to disconnect the wire in the center of the two coils and put some power to it and see if you have a shorted coil or if it's in the switch itself, Make sure you leave yourself enough wire to re solder or at least enough to add a little piece if you have to!
Happy Railroading!

[Dave Farquhar]

Thanks. That gives me a start. The 1121 that I need the most had a missing insulator, so I MacGyvered up a replacement. That got rid of the short. But now the solenoid won't operate at all. Previously it would switch when I applied power directly to the posts. (My properly working 1121s won't do that.)

The fact that applying power to the posts operated the switch suggests to me that the soldered connections between the solenoid and the posts are OK. Is this a good assumption?

You mention a wire in the center of the two coils; can you describe to me how I get to that?

You've helped me find one problem. Thanks!

[lionelsoni]

The switch should operate when you apply voltage between the center rail, which should be connected to one end of each coil, and one of the terminals farther from the switch machine, each of which should be connected to the other end of a coil and to the control rails. The middle terminal is connected to the coil for the diverging path. The terminal closest to the switch machine, the one on the metal plate, should be connected to the outside rails.

You can take the switch apart, but be prepared for some trouble putting it back together. You'll have to bend several tabs on rails and drill out several rivets, including the stud on the bottom of the frog. When I take a frog off, I drill and tap it for an 8-32 flathead screw to replace the riveted stud. Drilling all the way through causes no problem and avoids trying to tap such a shallow blind hole, as long as the screw doesn't protrude.

[Anonymous]

Usually when there are shorts in those switches, it is because one or more of the "H" shaped third rail insulators are missing.

[Anonymous]

Dave; Did that answer all of your questions?

[Dave Farquhar]

I think so. I still don't have the switch working but I think I've found how to get to the wire you mentioned, so I'll try it. I'll also take a look and see if there's another missing insulator somewhere.

One more question: Is there a better way to remove the insulating paper than to just rip it out?

Thanks,

[Anonymous]

Ahhhh, that's where it gets dicy, You remember what Lionelsoni said about the rivet drilling and rail tab bending?,,,,,,Well,,,,You are gonna' get into that in this stage of the game, But if your careful you shouldn't have any problems, Remember It's a old tired toy that aint really sapposed to be fixed so use your Santa's repare shop instincs and put the kids and the wife to bed,,,and a little time to your self and you got it made!
You get into trouble,,,E Mail me direct and I'll help you!

[lionelsoni]

That paper has holes in it to clear the rivets. It needs to be there; so I certainly wouldn't rip it out, even if I could get it all.

[Dave Farquhar]

Thanks for all your help. I got it working. I found another very loose rail, so I tightened that up to keep it from flopping around, and that seemed to have gotten rid of the short, because it took care of the warning light.

Then I found the switch wasn't very responsive in one direction. Looking at the solder joints to the posts, I thought I saw why. One of the wires was just barely hanging on. So I touched up that solder joint.

End result: A working pair of 1121s to upgrade my Christmas layout. An interesting experience, to say the least. Next up: Can I salvage another pair out of my pile, with which to upgrade my permanent layout in the basement...?

Thanks again.

[Anonymous]

Glad to help Dave, Been buried myself with Christmas repairs for others,,,I love it!
God bless!