Help with this Lionel locomotive set please.

[ricktrains4824]

Hi,

My name is Ricky, and I frequent the Model Railroader forums, and occasionally the Trains forums. This is my first post here.

A friend gave me an Lionel O-gauge set, that included oval of track, two Lionel Alco PA locomotives, one powered, one not, in Amtrak paint, and passenger cars.

Included is a photo of the locomotives. 

It also included a power pack and transformer/throttle.

Unfortunately, they gave it to me as it was not functioning when they got it used from another individual. (They had got it for their boys, but when it wouldn't run, they said I could have it, to display with my trains.)

The power pack does supply power, but no lights, motor or sounds from the locomotives. (They do both have onboard sound, as I have popped the shells off to check wiring, and was surprised by a speaker inside each unit, the wiring appears intact, as best as I can tell. No obvious broken parts or wires inside, motor contacts appear intact as well on the powered units trucks.)

Before opening the locomotives, I had cleaned all tracks and wheels, when nothing worked, I checked to see if there was any power from the controller, and there was, but maybe wrong voltage?

With the onboard sound, must there be a special controller? What voltage would they need to run? Or do I need to look elsewhere for the problem?

I would really like to get these to run, if possible, so as to give them to said friends boys, who are now 9&7, for them to enjoy. I just am a little lost when it comes to O gauge equipment, big difference from my HO scale ones! Anything I am missing?

[lionelsoni]

Please post any numbers that are on the locomotive, cars, and transformer.

[ricktrains4824]

I can't find any on the locomotives themselves, other than the city, state, zip code underneath. 

Where would the model numbers be found on them?

EDIT: Inside, stamped on the back of the unit, under the shell, is:

10-8934-T-065A if that help.

[Firelock76]

Did you see any circuit boards when you popped the shell off the powered locomotive?  There may be a blown one causing the issue.

Standard procedure for O gauge manufacturers now is to use DC motors and to run the incoming AC voltage from the transformer through an inverter board. Circuit boards (for sound or otherwise) need DC voltage as well, at least the ones I know of.

As an experiment, you could try running two leads from one of your HO transformers (which I assume are DC) to one of the motors in the locomotive and see if it runs.

If it's a board issue you'll have to visit a Lionel service center to see if they can fix it. 

Good luck! 

[lionelsoni]

Number boards on the front of the locomotive, reporting marks and numbers on the sides of the cars, nameplate on the transformer.

On toy trains, the reporting marks are traditionally also the part numbers, although in recent years this has been changing.  But, in any case, those markings can often confirm a guess at the actual part number.

[Firelock76]

I just went into one of my Lionel books and it looks like that ALCO FA Amtrak locomotive numbered 8936 dates to 1995 thru 1997, so that (I think) definately puts it into the circuit board era.

Don't know about the production date of the set, the book doesn't show sets.

One last thing, do the passenger cars light up?  That would certainly show you're getting juice to the track.

[Penny Trains]

1995 Lionel catalog: "6-11748 Amtrak passenger car set."  1996 Lionel catalog lists it as "Amtrak Alco passenger set."  Both show 8936 FA, 16095 "New Smyrna" combine, 16096 "Silver dome" vista dome and 16097 "Lake Worth" observation.  The 6-18937 (8937 on side of loco) dummy FA-2 was s eparate sale item as were the 6-15107 "Prairie view" full dome, 6-15100 "Danbury" coach, 6-16098 "Temple" coach and 6-16099 "High dome" vista dome cars.

Set came with 27" by 63" oval of O-27 track (8 curved and 8 straight), "easy-to-use controller with a powerful UL-listed 3-amp. 40-watt transformer, hook-up wire and lockon."  $199.95 in 1995 and $219.95 in 1996.  I wouldn't stake my life on it, but as far as I know sets of that era all came with AC transformers so there should be a rectifier in the locomotive to convert the AC track power for the DC motor installed in the locomotive.

A few 3 rail basics, they may give you some ideas: power is supplied to track by lockon or track clip.  The arrangement of the wires isn't terribly critical but I try to have the center rail be the "hot" or positive rail and the outer rails (linked electrically by the metal crossties) as the negative or common (often labelled as "U" on transformers).

The locomotive and/or lighted cars pick up their power through a roller or sliding shoe that rides the center rail and return it via the axles and wheels.  If the roller(s) are dirty, missing or out of alignment this can inhibit or impair the operation of the train.  If the cars or the dummy FA light when placed on the track by themselves a misaligned loco roller could be the culprit.  At any rate, it's an easy first thing to check.

Becky

[Michael6268]

I have that same exact set. Dates back to the 90s. One thing I noticed in your post. You state that each unit has a speaker. Only the B unit / dummy unit has a speaker. The powered A unit does not come with a speaker. You might have two B / dummy units.  Have you checked the truck on them to see if they indeed have a motor? The powered A unit has dual motors. One on each truck. The B unit has no motors. There will be pick up rollers on the bottom regardless, as the B /dummy units light up and does supply the diesel horn sound. Powered A unit definitely did not come with a speaker.

[ricktrains4824]

One does have two motors, one each truck, one truck motor facing one way, one truck motor facing the other, or one truck with gears on left side, one with gears on the right side, the other locomotive no motors. (I assume the motors were built that way?)

I only opened the one, as it had a "rattle" piece, a connector was loose, so I reconnected it, and when I opened it I noticed the circuit board and the speaker. Both the powered and the unpowered units have a mini slide switch under the rear truck, says on/off, I assume was for sound? I will have to open the powered unit to double check it... (Could be, as it was used, and I have zero info on history, that something was changed in the set? More on that later in the post)

I did try my HO power pack, with DC, as I had read that Lionel could use either AC or DC power, in another post on here, but still got nothing for response. (I did some research when the supplied transformer wouldn't work. I assumed the transformer was bad, and so looked around, and seen that most circuit board style units could use DC power as well, and having seen the circuit board, figured I could try it, and if it worked, just let my friend know they needed a new power supply. When it still gave no sign of getting power, I figured I best start asking some questions on here.)

No lights or sound or movement from either locomotive, (the cars are in rougher shape so I haven't tested them, broken coupler knuckles on two, missing truck king pin screw on one, loose axle on another, but I know I can fix these issues easily. That kind of thing transfers over, just bigger or smaller in size depending on scale/gauge.) with either power supply, but I am sure that the DC pack works, as that is the one I use to test run used HO locomotives before I add DCC decoders, or when troubleshooting an issue on my workbench. 

The friend who had got them, figured that one toy train is like another, so I should know how to do this.... I love how that happens.

But because they got them used, and know very little about trains, and zilch of the history of these models, I can't answer on that. (Yard sale find. That was red flag for me, as unless I know what it is, and the person can answer questions on it too my satisfaction, I pass on yard sale trains. They didn't ask any questions, other than if there were any missing parts. That was another red flag for me, as that now makes it sound like the set was marked really cheaply, thereby encouraging a quick, less informed purchase. I would really be asking questions then, but I know a little about O trains, so I would probably ask the wrong things, I know much more about HO though.)

I will have to test both power supplies with the passenger cars, and I will retest the supplied transformer with my multimeter (and write down the readings so I remember what it was....) but was wondering if the sound system, (like in HO scale) meant I needed more power. (In HO scale, the motors are still 12 volts, but on DC power sound units require anywhere from 5-8 Volts to start, depending on unit, and wondered if O equipment needed more power with sound as well.)

The supplied transformer "*should*" be AC power, correct? (Want to test it correctly with said multimeter.) 

*Should* is starred, as again, it might not be original equipment.... I know that is really hindering things, but it's all I have to work with...

Edited typo...

[ricktrains4824]

Becky,

Thanks for the explanation of the power lock on, I was unsure of which wire went where, so I tried it one wire to center, one to outside rail, the switched them around when no power signs. 

My normal models are HO scale, two rail. So, knowing some basics of three rail is helpful. Glad to know that so long as one is center rail, one outer, it should work, so nothing that I did wrong during testing.

[webenda]

ricktrains4824

I will have to test both power supplies with the passenger cars

When you do the passenger car test, put one at a time on the track. If none light up, then either the lights are burned out or you have no power to the track (your voltmeter can check the track, center rail to one outside rail.)

NOTE--Always check the track voltage with the car or engine being tested on the track. Loading the system can help find bad track joints, which are another possible reason an engine won't run. (I don't think that is your problem.)

If the passenger cars light up, you can concentrate on the powered locomotive.

Thank you Becky for part numbers allowing finding manuals for this set.

You can download the manual for your Amstrak Set. It shows how to hook up the power supply.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/media/servicedocuments/71-1748-250.pdf

 

Supplement to the repair manuals shows the dummy unit.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/media/supplements/Supplement27/27Complete.pdf

 

Here is instruction manual for powered unit (shows it has a speaker :-) )

https://www.lionelsupport.com/media/servicedocuments/71-8994-250.pdf

 

If nothing lights up, it is possible that someone connected the track to a wall outlet. I have heard of that happening. Burns the bulbs out in a flash.

My wife confessed she once put power cords on a set of speakers. First one she plugged in was really loud for a moment, then silence. Must have been a bad speaker, so she tried the other. People make mistakes.

 

[Michael6268]

webenda

 

 

 

 

Here is instruction manual for powered unit (shows it has a speaker :-) )

https://www.lionelsupport.com/media/servicedocuments/71-8994-250.pdf

 

 

 

 

The Powered unit didn't come with a speaker. Only the B unit had a horn.

The manual above is not for the engine we are talking about.

 

The switch on the powered unit is to lock the reverse unit.

The switch on the B unit shuts off the horn..

[Firelock76]

Yard sale find?  Considering the condition you say they're in, who was the previous owner, Gomez Addams?

[webenda]

Michael6268

 The Powered unit didn't come with a speaker. Only the B unit had a horn.

The manual above is not for the engine we are talking about. 

OK. Thank you for the information Michael, I'll make a note, "No sound card or speaker in Amtrak Set Alco." Did the Amtrak Set Alco have a 6- number so that I might look up the correct manual for Ricky?

[lionelsoni]

The U terminal on Lionel transformers is sometimes the common terminal and meant to be connected to the outside rails, and sometimes U is not the common and is meant to be connected to the center rail.  Among postwar transformers meant for controling multiple trains, U us usually the common.  Among postwar transformers meant for controlling one train, U is usually not the common.

Transformers put out alternating voltage, so both sides of a circuit are alternately positive and negative.

[Michael6268]

webenda

 

 

Michael6268

 The Powered unit didn't come with a speaker. Only the B unit had a horn.

The manual above is not for the engine we are talking about. 

 

 

 

OK. Thank you for the information Michael, I'll make a note, "No sound card or speaker in Amtrak Set Alco." Did the Amtrak Set Alco have a 6- number so that I might look up the correct manual for Ricky?

 

 

The Powered unit is 6-18936

The Dummy unit is  6-18937

[webenda]

Thank you again Michael.

6-18936 - Amtrak Alco FA Power A #8936

Amtrak Alco FA - Pictorial Diagram - 199571-8936-252Pictorial Diagram 

https://www.lionelsupport.com/media/servicedocuments/30610-8936-001.pdf

 

The wiring diagram for Electronic E-Unit 600-103-001 is found in Supplement 21.

Several inexpensive locomotives use the 600-103-001, one of the RS-3 locomotives being one of them. When you are looking for the 8963 Amtrak FA Power unit wiring diagram, you are directed to this diagram. The diagram shows a Horn Circuit Board. If you do not have a horn circuit, as several have said, just ignore it in the diagram.

Using the wiring diagram as a guide you can do things like check for continuity between the rollers and W2 on 600-0103-001. You can tell which wire nuts to remove so you can try runing the motors with your HO DC power supply. Hopefully you will find a broken wire and have it running in no time.

Regarding image size: you can click on it and if Photobucket is workinig at the time, a larger image will appear. Or you can right click and copy from this site, paste into a photo editing application and it will appear larger.

 

[Michael6268]

Your welcome.

I was gonna post that from the lionel website, but  couldn't  get the link to copy.

 

 

[ricktrains4824]

Thanks all.

I will play around with them some more tomorrow afternoon, as I have the afternoon off. (Sorry I have been silent the past two days, but working retail makes for busy weekends.)

I will update then.

I appreciate all the help given so far, been very informative.

THANK YOU!

[ricktrains4824]

Firelock76

Yard sale find?  Considering the condition you say they're in, who was the previous owner, Gomez Addams?

 

Not Gomez, I don't think. My friend said they found it at a sale with lots of kids toys and clothing, so most likely something they bought for the little ones to play with, and it lost it's "fun value" when it either quit working, or was damaged making it quit. (At least that is the assumption I can come up with... Of course, they may have played with them like Gomez did.... Which would rightly be a hanging offense in some households.)

The only thing I will need outside parts for, other than maybe the locomotives and/or power supply, will be the coupler knuckles.... My spares are all too small!

[ricktrains4824]

Ok, as mentioned the update on Sunday afternoon:

The supplied power pack/throttle: Sound button is broken, not a big issue for me, but supplies @full throttle 18.7V AC. (Steady. Tested multiple points.) It does reduce and increase with throttle control, and shuts off entirely when you turn the throttle to zero.

I was finally able to get some of the passenger car lights to work, still a few that must be burnt out. (Not a major concearn at this point, easily fixed.)

Zilch so far for either locomotive lighting wise, and zero signs of power getting to the powered locomotive motors. (Dislike this fact.)

I will be going over, with a fine tooth comb as they say, the wiring inside the locomotives, using the supplied (thank you!) wiring diagram.

Anyone have anything else I should be looking for? I am open to suggestions here...

If I can't get her running, I will be making her a shelf queen... Wrong scale for me, but, in that instance, trains are indeed trains. 

And, for those interested, not only did the original owners add on the second locomotive, the dummy A with sound, they also added the two additional passenger cars, making for all 6 cars, and both locomotives. So, the set is indeed correct that was mentioned above. Thanks for the assist in ID'ing the set, and part numbers.

And, the loose axle set, and truck King pin, are fixed. (Something going right!) 

[Firelock76]

Thanks for the updates, please keep us posted as to how it turns out.

If you've got an electrical meter (and I'm sure you do) meter the wire leads to the motors and see if there's any juice getting there, I still suspect an inverter board problem.  If the board's blown there's always the option of wiring the pick-ups directly to the motors and running the set using a DC transformer, the lights in the cars won't care what kind of voltage they get, AC or DC.  Of course, you probably won't have the horn option.

If the locomotive is hopeless there's always the option of getting a Williams Amtrack locomotive, they're very reasonably priced and good runners.  At least you'll have something to pull the cars with.

 

[webenda]

Ricky,

 

In your case the lights are wired directly to the pick-up rollers making troubleshooting lights for cars and engines simple. Some lights working indicates power to track OK. Some lights not working means one of several things. Light not seated in socket, broken wire, or burned out light. Broken wires to truck pick-up rollers is common because trucks swivel going into and out of turns and eventually the wires break. No power from trucks explains no power to motors also.

 

Burned out lights is common also, because the lights are rated for 12 volts, 70 mA and Lionel transformers put out from 15 to 20 VAC. (What were you thinking with your choice of lamps Lionel?) 

 

If a broken wire (two if both trucks have pick-up rollers) is not the case, and power is supplied to the electronic E-unit and you have continuity between the board and motors and between the motors and ground (don't overlook bad grounds) then the E-unit is bad. There is no “inverter board.” An “inverter” is a device that converts DC into AC. The electronic E-unit converts AC into DC for DC motors.

 

Electronic E-units are simple devices that can be reverse engineered to come up with a schematic and then the board checked for bad components. Alternative is to buy a new board. Lionel Parts lists a 6000103001   E-UNIT W/O BRKT for $16.50. => https://www.lionelsupport.com/ReplacementParts/index.cfm?doAction=productPartFilter&number=6-18936&productID=8127056E-79DB-4F0B-B5DDB619EE8197E6&CFID=76084036&CFTOKEN=89175b9e88ca1a69-CC7F8BBE-0973-E117-ADA907C971F3AD75&jsessionid=84305795243c5daeaddb38655136a2f42684

 

 

[ricktrains4824]

Update for all:

First, sorry it has taken me a while to respond, work has been keeping me very busy this week, one person walked out on Monday and never came back, and another had a family emergency and just returned today.

Now, as far as the Lionel set that was not working... It now does! 

I disassembled, checked again every wire, and connectors, all intact and tight. (Or so I thought.)

I then did a continuity test, unit on track, from center rail to outside rail. It made a continuous electrical path on my tester. I then, for fun, plugged in the power supply, and advanced the throttle. Lights on the powered unit came on! (I was impressed.) A little more throttle, and the powered unit began moving. (Hooray!) The dummy unit also has full lights, but I have no way to test the sound. (Needed quite a bit of juice to move, but that could just be it needs a tune-up and lube job. More on that later.)

The only thing that I can figure, is that one of the internal wire connections had worked it's way loose, and when I had re-checked everything, going off the supplied diagram, (Thank you!), I hit the right one (I had too, I checked every wire!), and got it making contact again. (The dummy unit I had pulled the light, and reinstalled it, just to see if a nearby train store has the right replacement ones. (I don't trust his part numbers in HO parts, as they have been incorrect before, and am unsure if his O parts are the same...) It now suddenly lights, so it must have just been loose.)

I appreciate the help, and the supplied documents will no doubt come in handy in the future. (Thanks for identifying exactly what it is as well, as there was very little info to go on. Now I know.Thanks!)

Now I will finish the tune-up and lube job, hopefully quiet down the gear/motor noise a little, as the powered unit does make quite a bit of mechanical noise. (Good thing I keep that stuff on hand for my HO equipment... I am sure the lube will work on both sizes.) Now I will just need to replace the burnt out lights, the two coupler knuckles that are broken, and we have a perfectly functioning set. (Sound will be tested at the train store, as when I asked if he could test things if I couldn't get it running he said he could, as he does repair O gauge equipment. Hopefully it will work fine now as well, and will just need a add on controller.)

So, again, a BIG Thank You for all the help! 

[rtraincollector]

Contact Jeff Kane at www.ttender.com , 585-229-2050,  [e-mail] believe it or not he is probably there right now he works real late then doesn't come in until early afternoon a lot of times.  

[webenda]

Thank you for the report Ricky. Always gratifiying to learn we helped someone.

[Firelock76]

That's great Rick, and thanks for the update and progress report.

And welcome to the Wonderful World Of O Gauge!

Your great adventure's just beginning...