?___watts to pull 20 cars up 1.5% grade?

[Boyd]

Has CTT ever done a comparison of transformers? I'd like a transformer that can handle a train of 20 MPC medium sized cars being pulled by 2 MPC engines with can motors up a 1.5% grade. My layout has been apart for about 6 years for modifications while other distractions kept me away from completion. I don't like the old transformers that start at 6-8 volts and make the train do a jackrabbit start. I have two of the 1st generation MRC Tech II 027 transformers, 1 Lionel CW-80 and then a bunch of misc older transformers. All my engines are conventional power. I like to run multiple engines. My layout is wired well with connections about every 6 sections. I haven't noticed any power drops anywhere on the layout. 

[rtraincollector]

To me that isn't just a simple answer anymore as depending on the MPC engines some have dual motor some have single some have magna traction some don't some have rubber track grabbers on some of the power wheels some don't have anything. there is so many varibles it's hard to say. MPC cars have a varible you can have 2 boxcars side by side and other than road names that can have a very different weight. Now some in here may be able to give you a better answer but I'm just pointing out what has to be concidered and as for weight difference in cars some where made with metal frames some with plastic frames some with metal wheels and axles some with plastic so just to give you an idea some one like Bob nelson might be able to give you a better understanding as he is a wizard with electronics and coponents type anwers. 

[sulafool]

I wonder how many requests the Lionel service dept. has had for "rubber track grabbers"?

[rtraincollector]

okay was having early morning brain malfunction lol yes I know traction tire any thing before noon is to early for me lol 

[sulafool]

Right with ya; my daughter called 9:30 this morning and was astonished she woke me up. Retirement is great!

[ADCX Rob]

60 watts.

[8ntruck]

Just curious, Rob.  How did you arrive at that number?

60 watts - that would just about max out a 1033 or a CW80.

[ADCX Rob]

A 1033 is ~ 65 watts output, a CW-80 is 80 watts output.

I just figured based on observation that a full throttle dual motored(DC can motors) diesel pulling a goo consist draws about 25 watts, times two equals 50, plus 20% for overhead.

[prrstation]

I agree with rtraincollector, there are just too many unknown variables to determine the appropriate trainsformer / transformers for your layout.

For instance:

- how large is your layout?  4X8, 8X10, 8X16,16X32, 32X64.... or larger?
- what is your smallest diameter curve?  The smaller the curve the more friction the wheels will have to overcome (i.e. more power from the transformer) to run smoothly.
- the total "weight" of the 20 MPC cars that the engines will be pulling.  The greater the weight the more powerful the engines will be needed.
-jackrabbit starts will depend on the gearing of the locomotives. It varies from locomotive to locomotive.
-you say you like to run "multiple engines".  How many.... two, three, four.
-do any of your locomotives have "B" units?  This will add attional weight that your engines will need to pull... in addition to the 20 MPC cars.
- do you run one or more trains at the same time on your layout? If so, you may need to create "blocks" on your layout and control them with additional transformers.

Again, there are just too many unknowns to give a definitive answer of which (or how many) transformers to suggest for your particular needs.

However, to answer your question, you probably won't go wrong with a 1960's Lionel ZW (or two) that has seen proper maintenance.

The Lionel (6-32930) ZW and PowerHouse Power Supply Set with twin 180 watt "bricks" will probably be more than adequate for your needs.

Of course, the other (and more expensive) options would be the new Lionel (6-37921) 620 watt ZW-L... or the MTH Z-4000.

Hope this information has been useful.

[Boyd]

4.5'x10' flat yard with loop around it. Minimum 042 curves in a few places. 

[ADCX Rob]

65 watts.

[wsdimenna]

for all practical purposes you only have about 80% of the rated power available.  On my grades with two engines (command) over the the whole grade I required about  72 watts on average. If you have curves figure a higher number.  The best investment you can make on a train layout is a transformer. Buy a new one with better breakers and more power

[Boyd]

I forgot to mention it climbs up from the yard with 1/4 turn 072 curve, 42" straight, 1/4 turn 072 curve, 48" straight, 1/4 turn 072 curve, 40" straight, then a series of curves leading into the Fastrack 48" turnaround loop in the closet. 36" straight, Fastrack 72" 1/4 turn, 36" straight, 054 curve 1/4 turn. This reaches the top of the grade to the upper level where there is a 042 turnaround loop. 

[ADCX Rob]

wsdimenna

for all practical purposes you only have about 80% of the rated power available.

Depends on the transformer. Fully 5 amps is available continuously from the CW-80.

The 1033 is rated at 65 watts continuous output.

[wsdimenna]

i know what they are rated and having 4 grades I can almost guaranetee that a 1033 will pop fuse if not the first time then soon after.

[ADCX Rob]

He doesn't have Command engines. He has two starter set diesels with little can motors. Even stalled, at full throttle, they will barely draw 60 watts.

[webenda]

And you know that (25 watts and 60 watts) how Rob? (Not a challenge, just curious.)

Those little can motors we see in our model trains are capable of sustaining 60 watts in power tools and as model airplane motors, so I find 60 watts a reasonable maximum power required for model train engines using them.

I tested the current draw on my two can motor Lionchief Plus Union Pacific 121. It drew 0.2 amp running without cars and 1.0 amp when it ran into my kitchen scale and stalled (with wheels slipping). Voltage on track was 18 volts, so the power consumed was 18 watts. The scale got pushed out of my hands first try. With a better grip, the dial went all the way around past zero (2 lbs force) and settled out at 2.2 lbf.

I would say 60 watts would be more than enough for the set-up Boyd described.

[ADCX Rob]

webenda

And you know that (60 watts) how Rob? (Not a challenge, just curious.)

Over 50 years of experience and observation.

[webenda]

Thank you Rob. Sometimes experience works better than trying to figure things out from specifications, especially if there are no specifications (all too often the case.)

[8ntruck]

Boyd - I like what you have chosen for the name of your railroad.

As a reference point, my CW80 would run my Texas Special passenger train that consists of 4 lighted cars, a dummy locomotive and a two motor powered locomotive with Legacy.  If I had both the car lights and the smoke units on, it would trip the CW80 into overload mode.  Turning either the car lights off, or the smoke units off would allow the train to run.  This was on a level track with 60" curves.  Using a 180 watt brick for power solves this issue.

With proper track wiring, the physical size of your layout does not really affect how large your power supply needs to be.  The total current draw of the trains that you are running, the lights that are being lit, and the accessories that are running dictate the size of the power supply that you need. 

The amount of current your locomotives draw depends on the type of the motor, the condition of the locomotive, the grade, the radius of your track curves, and the weight and rolling resistance of the cars that you are pulling.  The cleanliness of the track and locomotive wheels probably have an effect on the current draw as well.

You could always apply the hot rodder's horespower rule - "If some is good, more is better, and too much is just enough".  With this method, you will want to make sure that you have proper overcurrent protection (circuit breakers), or you will end up melting or burning something up. 

[Boyd]

I think I used 12g wire going to the various feeders that are at every 4-6 track sections. Fargo Area Rapid Transit is a joke name with the first letters spelling something probably not allowed on here. I yet to have any true "rapid transit" rolling stock, but there is still time. My rolling stock is a lot of can motor modern 4-4-2 steamers, two 1981 DM&IR 8158s with the large motor inside the cab, one older 1666 steamer, two Pennsylvania 8203 steamers, Alaska two motor 1804 GP7, two other dual motor GP20s and a Lionel K-Line Porter. If I like something, usually end up buying a 2nd one. I usually run the newer stuff and don't often run lighted passenger cars. I'm selling some misc cars and parts so I can buy a bigger transformer.