New Member building man cave has questions !!

[Southwest Limited]

Layout Facts: Lionel Fastrack. 1 120 foot long dog bone with an additional 50 foot of spur and staging tracks. 2 50 foot is the furthest distance from power pack. 3 Going to put a feeder wire on every other piece of track. Equipment Facts: 1 Have my dads Lionel steam train he purchased in 1940. 2 My Lionel steam trains from 1966 and 1971. 3 Going to purchase a NYC F3 Diesel Passenger train. (side note -- the land I own includes the abandon road way of the New York Central that the Southwest Limited used. This right of has a concrete bridge that was built in 1906 (big four). Now the Questions to the experts: 1 What power pack do your recommend to run one train at a time. 2 What size buss wires for 50 foot length. 3 What size feeder wires. Thanks for your response. John

[BigAl 956]

• A nicely rebuilt ZW is what I would use. Plenty of power and they are value priced these days.
• 14 Gage stranded for the bus wires
• 18 gauge for feeders.

f3WYD7teKIA

[Rob412]

I agree with Al. I'm also about 50' from my power source and I run 12ga. Bus and 14ga. Feeders although this is excessive. If you are considering newer engines in the future which will have either legacy (lionel) or DCS (MTH) be sure to familiarize your self with the various components of these systems. I would not recommend running a new engine with just the ZW as it does not offer adequate circuit protection for any of the newer engines. The ZW I am referring to are post war ZW's the new ZW's do you have adequate circuit protection. There are many threads on this forum that discuss those components and also power consumption that you might be interested in looking at. However for the trains you described a post war ZW would be a good place to start.

[Rob412]

Also if you do go with a post war ZW be sure to plug it in and check the noise level before you purchase. Some of the older ZW's can have a very loud humming noise which may be considered annoying.

[Southwest Limited]

Thanks  BigAl956 and Rob412 for your quick responses.

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Do I need the 275 watts of power for the 50 foot distance ??   Is the new 180 watt  # 37947 power pack not enough to run one train at a 50 foot distance ??  Or does the ZW got extra power and two cabs that could be used to run multiple trains in the future ??

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Thanks for your responses !!  John

[lionelsoni]

Whether the trains run 50-feet from the transformer depends very little on how much power the transformer can put out and very much on the voltage drop in the feeders you use to connect it at that distance.  If you know how much current your train will draw, you can multiply that by the feeder resistance to find out how much extra voltage your transformer will have to put out to overcome the voltage drop.

The resistance of 10 AWG wire is about 1 milliohm per foot, so 100 milliohms in the 50-plus-50 feet out and back.  If your train draws 5 amperes, the drop is only 500 millivolts, which would be hardly noticeable.  With 12 AWG wire at 1.6 milliohms per foot, the drop is 800 millivolts.  With 14 AWG at 2.5 millivolts per foot, it's 1.25 volts.  I would use 12 AWG.

A trick to reduce voltage drop is to power accessories out-of-phase with the track (from a separate transformer), but use the track as the common return for trains and accessories.  The out-of-phase accessory return current will cancel some of the voltage drop caused by the train current.  Another is to connect outside rails of multiple tracks together wherever they come close to each other.

The bottom line is that the transformer selection should not depend on the size of a well-wired layout.

[Rob412]

May I suggest a ZW-C or a ZW-L (this would be the top shelf transformer). These transformers use external power supplies commonly referred to as bricks that plug into the transformer. The reason I suggest these is for growth purposes as it sounds as though you have a lot of real estate. They also offer the most versatility as they can handle both conventional which is what you have now and command equipped locomotives if you choose to get newer engines in the future. These Transformers would be able to grow with your railroad and like all ZW's they can handle up to four trains at one time. These would also save you the cost of adding power Masters if you choose to use a command system like legacy in the future. I wouldn't worry about voltage drop as long as you have sufficient gauge bus and feeders. Place the feeders about 6 to 8 feet apart and you'll be good. As stated above avoid having accessories and lights on the same transformer if you can avoid it.

[Rob412]

Sorry I made it sound as though both of the above Transformers have external power only the ZW-C has external power ZW-L is self-contained.

[JayOttawa]

John,

Great suggestions so far. Since you have such a large layout planned, I would recommend using a common bus wire but break your layout into isolated blocks by using the Fastrack 1 3/8" pieces to isolate the powered rail and using SPDT switches. This would allow you to use cab control to run multiple conventional locomotives. It would also allow you to add either Legacy/TMCC or DCS at a later date.

good luck with your project,

Jay in Ottawa

[Plate Rail]

lionelsoni

A trick to reduce voltage drop is to power accessories out-of-phase with the track (from a separate transformer), but use the track as the common return for trains and accessories.  The out-of-phase accessory return current will cancel some of the voltage drop caused by the train current.  Another is to connect outside rails of multiple tracks together wherever they come close to each other.

The bottom line is that the transformer selection should not depend on the size of a well-wired layout.

Neat tricks!  Short feeds means optimum power distribution and less cost.   The out of phasing  gives the accessory transformer a second duty.

Bruce

[Southwest Limited]

Thanks for all the help. I am working on finishing the studding, wiring, and sheeting of the room. The train table will come next. Will try to post a picture or two as it progresses. John