Information needed about Kraus tinplate trains

[pbjwilson]

Are there any tinplate collectors that could help me out with some info on Kraus trains. I bought a set consisting of an engine tender and two passenger coaches. What I would really like to know is when it was made.
There is a paint stamped no. 28 on the bottom of the loco. Is this a date or model #? What years did Kraus produce trains? Any info would be helpful.
Thanks,
Paul the paintmiester

[daan]

I guess a photo of the item would help.. The name itself sounds familiair somewhere, but I can't figure out where..

[lionelsoni]

Kraus-Fandor was started in 1910 in Nurenberg by Josef Kraus. Two of his cousins started Dorfan in the US, reversing the syllables of "Fandor". Keim & co. took over the company in 1936. It was bombed and never rebuilt after the war.

[daan]

So it is familiair.. it's from Neurenberg, Germany.. the place Maerklin has it's settlements too.

[Anonymous]

Another interesting thing to add is that the name Fandor comes from the first syllables of the first names of Josef Kraus' mother and aunt, which were Fanny and Dora. Dora was the mother of the cousins, Milton and Julius Forchheimer, who started Dorfan. What better way to honor Mom than to name your toy train company after her!

[daan]

@ sask_tinplater, you really know a lot of old toy trains.. That part of the name FANDOR is really something not a lot of people know.. I know a bit of Kraus, have read it in one or two articles in books on old toytrains from europe, but that's about it.

[Anonymous]

I'm not a Kraus expert or anything, but I like to know a bit about each toy train manufacturer. In my own collection I have three Kraus silver streamlined passenger cars. They would have originally come with a matching streamlined steam locomotive and tender, which, sadly, I do not have.

[daan]

Are those silver streamlined cars a bit to scale, or is it like Bing produced. I have a train set from Bing, with a postcar, passenger car and an observation car, though they have boogies, the length is the same as the other 2 axle cars made in that area..
Bing also is a german factory, and I'm curious why they made toytrains based on american railroads..

[mersenne6]

daan,
Prior to World War I and into the 1920's America was a major consumer of trains imported from Europe. In the pre-World War I period, Ives, not Lionel, was the big name in American toy trains and, with America being a lucrative export market, it was Ives trains that Bing, Fandor, and other focused on when it came to competition.

Nuremberg was the toy capital of Germany (hence GBN -Gebruder Bing, Nuremberg, KBN - Karl Bub, Nuremberg). The Europeans, from the beginning, focused more on the scale aspects of trains both with respect to looks and to operation. In order to meet the competition and increase their appeal, Bing, like Fandor, studied Ives trains and took the time to learn about American prototypes. All of the Bing freight cars with North American railroad names (except the reefers) are taken straight from the 1903 ACF catalog - copied right down to the reporting numbers. To the best of my knowledge, no one knows the references for the reefers but they are prototypically accurate and there were numerous photo references available to Bing and others at the time.

The other German toy train makers also made trains with U.S. outlines and markings for the same reason.

[pbjwilson]

Thanks for all the info guys. I also went to the library and got some information on Kraus- Fandor. Now for another question. Is there anyway I can find a replacement wheel for the engine? Or should I keep an eye out for a "parts loco" on e-bay.

[daan]

Paul, The parts could be a problem, since the factory doesn't excist anymore. You could try to find out which brand bought the Kraus company after it run bankrupt, and then ask there. A lot is bought by Maerklin, and Fleischmann also bought a few bigger toytrain company's (DOLL&co) in the 50's. By asking via e-mail you could discover if they have any spare-parts left over.
Wheels and parts for European prewar is very difficult to get..

[Anonymous]

My Kraus passenger cars are more like the Bing type. They have four wheels and are each 6 inches long.

In addition to what mersenne6 said, some of the German manufacturers did make trains specifically for the American market after World War I. They were mainly for the cheaper end of the market, although a few better quality ones were made. Of course, they had a much smaller share of the market than they did before the war.

Bing also produced a lot of trains made for the Canadian market as well, all of which were made after WWI. I have a 4-wheel passenger car and a boxcar in Canadian Pacific markings. The boxcar is one of only four examples known to exist. Bub also made a set for Canada (which I also own), but it was Bing that made a variety of different trains for Canada. All the Canadian items are quite valuable and rare and with the exception of the Bing 4-wheel passenger sets (which are still hard to come across), all are very difficult to find, even here in Canada.

[daan]

Do those Bing's have their typical Bing coupler also on the american marketed trains? My Bing american train (no road names) has the hook and swingclip type coupling.
bing is actually relatively easy to buy still in Europe. It was more affordable then Maerklin and the quality is good and solid. It also has more reasonable prices, since maerklin is the item to go for, bing is on second place in the toytrain world in Europe. JEP is even cheaper, but the quality is far less.

[Anonymous]

Yes, the Bing trains have the simple tab and slot coupler. Here in Canada, the American manufacturers are the most common to find when compared to European-made trains.

[mersenne6]

Sask_Tinplater. I think whoever provided you with the information concerning 4 known examples of the Bing Canadian Pacific car was in error. I have 2 (there were two versions one lithoed to look like wood sheathing and the other to look like an outside braced car). There is a Canadian Pacific wood sheathed version in the Ward Kimball Auction and then there is yours. That puts us at 4 already and I know of at least that many in collections of some of my friends. I will agree that the Canadian versions are difficult to find. The most common versions are those lithoded for Eastern U.S. roads (PRR, P&R, B&O, Erie, CNJ, NYNH&H) and of those, the ones I've seen most often at meets are the Erie, CNJ, and NYNH&H. Of the remaining (Canadian Pacific-Wood Sheathed, CP - Outside Braced, AT&SF, IC) the AT&SF is a fairly difficult one to locate.

[Anonymous]

I was told that information by a friend of mine who is an expert in Canadian toy trains and owns two of them. According to him, the only other one besides his and mine is one that is owned by another collector that he knows. I didn't know that there was an outside-braced version of the car. Mine is lithographed as a wood-sided one, as are my friend's. I suppose he was wrong then. I'll have to tell him about what you said.

[mersenne6]

Sask_Tinplater. Let me know if you'd like a jpeg of the other Canadian Pacific car. I'd be glad to e-mail you a picture of one.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mersenne6

Sask_Tinplater. Let me know if you'd like a jpeg of the other Canadian Pacific car. I'd be glad to e-mail you a picture of one.

Yes, I'd love to have it! Thank you! I'd like to see both versions of the car. My e-mail address is [e-mail]

My friend also told me that there is only one known example of the 4-wheel CP caboose that matches the boxcar. You don't by chance have one of those or know someone who does?

I found the Kraus set that my passenger cars go with on ebay, so I can post pictures of what it looks like now. If it didn't have so much rust, I'd consider bidding on it. This set has two passenger cars and I have three. Also, my cars have red details lithographed on them, instead of black like this set.

[mersenne6]

Ok, I'll get a jpeg of my two cars out to you this evening. As for the 4 wheel CP caboose, I don't have one but I have seen several over the years. If you or your friend is interested there is an 8 wheel version available as part of a set in the upcoming Kimball auction.

[mersenne6]

Hmmmm....I was just re-reading all of the posts to this thread and it occurred to me that when you said,

"I have a 4-wheel passenger car and a boxcar in Canadian Pacific markings. The boxcar is one of only four examples known to exist."

I took the comment to mean Bing Canadian Pacific boxcars regardless of wheel count. I've focused on the 8 wheel versions and the two that I have are also 8 wheel. I do know I've seen 4 wheel CP boxcars at the big TCA meet in York , Pa. over the years (in both styles) but I'm almost certain everyone whom I know collects only 8 wheel Bing. I'll have to do some asking around - perhaps your source is correct afterall.

[Anonymous]

I would be very interested in seeing the 8-wheel versions. I didn't know that they made such a car, although I always thought that they must have, considering that they made a 4-wheel version and generally made a car in both sizes for every roadname. I have seen the 8-wheel caboose as my friend owns one.