Just to clarify my feelings about the TCA and York.....

[Big_Boy_4005]

In the past week we have had four seperate topics relating to the TCA in general and/or the York meet in particular. I have made comments on all of those topics, some of those comments have been rather negative to say the least.

Here are those four topics:
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22974
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22917
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23089
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23014

I know that there are a lot of people who love the TCA and York. I suspect that the bulk of them generally hang out over on the OGR forum, only occasionally visiting here.

I have been a member of the TCA for over 22 years now. I have attended 4 national conventions, but have never been to York.

The 4 conventions I attended were 1982 in Denver, as that was where I was living at the time. In 1986 I moved back home to the Twin Cities where I grew up. In 1991 I made the trip to Chicago, in 1993 St Paul hosted, and in 2002 I traveled to the Chicago area again.

Financially, I am fairly well off, however in light of my recent divorce, things are not as comfortable as they once were. I have to live on a strict budget.

It wasn't until my divorce, that I realized how I felt about the TCA. No, my ex wife didn't get a single train. But, between having to buy her a house, and pay child support, my ability to buy trains pretty much vanished.

Maybe I was never really a train "collector" in the first place. In 1982 I was young and excited. I was 21, and attending my first national convention. I had never seen so many trains in my life. My head began to spin, until I realized that I only had a couple hundred dollars to spend. In the end I think I ended up having a couple bucks leftover.

The 1991 and 1993 conventions passed in much the same way. In 2002 I drove to Chicago. When I got there, I went up to my room, cleaned up, and headed out to the local hobby stores. I didn't attend any of the social events, because I didn't really know anyone there. The next day, it was all I could do to spend a few hours on the trading floor. I didn't have a table to watch, I never have. By the end of the first day, the hall was nearly empty. I ended up buying a few things from a couple different dealers, but most of the stuff on the members tables was of no interest to me.

I ended up having more fun running around Chicago visiting the hobby stores, than I did at the convention itself. In the end I found that it really isn't worth traveling to spend money, because I am perfectly capable of doing that at home.

I am 43, trains from the 20's through the 50's have no nostalgic value to me, and thus have little monetary value to me either. Even if they were of interest to me, I couldn't aford to buy them at today's prices.The TCA claims it isn't just for collectors. If you aren't interested in the old trains, and you aren't in it for the social aspect, then why be in it at all.

The TCA needs to take a long hard look at itself in the mirror if it wants to survive. It's demographic is pretty much aging, upper middle class, white guys, because nobody else wants to belong. Where's the future in that???

The TCA has built 2 monuments to itself. One is the museum and headquarters in Strasburg, which I have visited twice. The other, though slightly less permanent, I have never visited, namely York. I have heard enough stories about York over the years, to know that it is not my kind of event. I don't have the money to travel to it, and if I did, I would have nothing left to spend once I got there. Some fun.

Some say open York up to the public. That won't really make a lick of difference. Everyone who lives close enough, and wants to attend has pretty much joined the TCA already.

The TCA has other porblems too. With only a limited pool of members, who have limited dollars to spend, and all of these new trains flooding the market, where are prices for old trains likely to go? Certainly not up. The manufacturers are eating away at demand.

I don't think that I'm alone in these feelings, I have heard similar things from others here on the forum. We may not be the majority, but we do represent the future, or perhaps the lack there of.

Sincerely,

Elliot Feinberg
TCA 82-17215

[Anonymous]

Elliot: does the tca still have their monthly meetings at the park building north of the old soo line yards? I used to go there once and a while but never found much except some real pricy items.
Also when you mention the St Paul national, we met each other but you may not remember it. I was in charge of the QSI booth for Fred Seversen.
You were looking at a bunch of the sound blocks for your Mall America Layout. Due to the limited amt of traffic,just tca members who either collected old lionel or ran it made the meet a total loss for qsi. No one was interested at that time of changing anything in their newly aquired mint postwar lionel. We never went back. Did qsi go to york this year??
Dave.

[brianel027]

Elliot, I do agree with much of what you've said here and elsewhere. Although I must add that some of those who have responded back defending the TCA have done so intelligently and with passion.

I've had experience with TCA guys who seem way more interested in money than in trains. The kind who willing tell you the train car is worth $50 and then offer you $20. That may be the way things work in this world, but it isn't ethical. And I've met TCA guys who seem to think that such and such a train is still worth X amount of dollars when the reality of the market doesn't support it. Those kinds of guys are living in a dream... the dream of the 1980's when trains that were worth $500 could still be sold for $1000. And maybe some trains still are. But the undeniable fact is many are not. We all know there are too many trains and not enough buyers. And many times, when the topic of "toy" non-scale trains comes up, it's met with disdain and grunts from those who want even more scale realism.

On the other hand, I've met some TCA guys who truly care about the hobby, take time to offer advice, price and sell fairly, are honest and ethical and go out of their way to promote the hobby when it comes to kids.

But I do agree there is an image problem. I know many train guys who feel the image of the TCA leans far more to the side of the money obsessed collectors who don't even run trains, but want to make a fast buck. Or the guys who can afford to spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars on engines alone and insist the direction of the hobby move even further towards the total complete, nothing less than 100% scale replicas with absolute correct prototypical detail.

This may be an ugly perception. It may not be completely accurate. I'm sure it isn't. None the less, it exists and there are many who believe it. I know. I've talked to many who say they'll never join the TCA for the above couple of examples. I suspect there are far far more 027 traditional semi-scale out there than anyone wants to acknowledge. They just don't belong to the various train forums or to the TCA, and they don't spend nearly as much money on trains (which may contribute to the direction of the hobby: money talks).

It's a big hobby today.... bigger than ever and more diverse. And though there are some basic rules of right and wrong in regards to specifics of the train maintenance, operation, etc. there is no right or wrong way to collect or operate trains. For example, TMCC is no better than traditional control or DCS unless you feel it is - in which case it is for you. It may not be so for the next guy. And believe it or not, there's nothing wrong with using 027 track either. Many of us who use 027 might use something else if it were as affordable.But we make do. And we are as into trains as the next guy, albeit on a different financial level.

My biggest gripe with the hobby today is the polarization between the various splinter groups within the 3-rail hobby. The old saying goes, one man's trash is another man's treasure. Well, one man's idea of fun with trains may not be another man's idea - but hey, if it works for them, then it should be A-OK.

[Anonymous]

It looks like at this point the TCA and how they conduct their business is no longer your problem. Maybe they will take your words of wisdom and maybe not. Now you can move on with your life and leave the crusade behind.

Bill Sherwood

[Big_Boy_4005]

Dave, I do remember now that you say that. I don't remember much of what happened that week, it was mostly a blurr. Unfortunately, if we met on the street, I wouldn't recognize you, I'm sorry. That entire year is a blurr. I probably met 10,000 people, out of the over 100,000 that visited that year it was open. I would be hard pressed to remember the names of some of my employees today.

That week with the convention was crazy. All of that was, a marriage, 2 childern and 11 years ago. As a matter of fact Sunday will be the 11th anniversary of my final departure from the mall, the last trip I made hauling stuff out of there.

I know I still have the QSI stuff, I can't remember if I bought some of it while I was there, or if I had picked it up earlier.

Brian, I'm really not down on the people in the TCA, they are really a bunch of good guys that love their trains. But the organization has this real problem. It has had no growth for the last 4 years, and it is only a matter of time before we see negative growth. My TCA friends here are all between 15 and 30 years older than I am. There are only 2 people that I know, that are younger than me, and both of their fathers are in the club.

One of those father and son duos goes to York every time without fail. In both cases the sons still live at home, never married. Both fathers are retired, both sons have good jobs. The one that doesn't go to York shares hockey season tickets with me.

How many 20 somethings are getting into the TCA? Very few.

We've had the discussion before, how do we get children involved with trains? Better yet, how do we get train lovers to work together?

[Anonymous]

I don't think that opening up the York meet to the public would work. I am not a TCA member by the way. I think that the TCA needs to take a hard look at other policies and practices and modernize some and scrap others. The TCA really needs to be more polite in their dealings with the public and be more concerned about the actions of their members. I have seen many things that don't show TCA in a good light and because of that I choose not to be a part of that organization. TCA definitely doesn't want to listen to younger train people in their 20s and 30s. As a result those people are not interested in dealing with TCA but instead go to open shows and ebay. TCA seems to be mainly an organization that favors major manufacturers and large dealers and brokers of antiques and estates. Look at the ads published in their Headquarters Newsletters. ..."
I have $500,000 to spend on trains this year!"... ...."Am willing to spend $1.5 million on train collections this year"... also overpriced "commemorative cars" and sets that are just repainted or decaled middle or lower end cars that are normal production items. Well... I'll make an exception for the GOLD PLATED trains set that recently went for $19,000! Yup THERE'S an item that everyman would be interested in.

The only thing I see TCA promoting is commerce. Fellowship went out the door with the overinflated egos of the executives and officials. Hobby, trains and collecting went out the door with the overinflated prices of the trains. History went out the door with the TCA members who will repaint and alter an item and swear up and down that it is a "rare" piece and usually the repain or alteration is so sloppy that even an inexperienced person can tell. TCA should now stand for "Trade and Commerce Association" as it no longer has the regular collector, operator or hobbyist in mind.

We should send our views to "[e-mail]"

[railfan23]

Pease, for someone who is not a member you sure know what is in the new Quarterly and bi monthly paper.