more switch problems 1122's and 5021's

[richardm47]

I previously had some questions on old 1122's. As someone suggested, just get a few more. I now have two that work. I have created a double reverse loop with a "cross" in the middle. the 1122 "non-de-railer" functions work fine, switching to the correct direction when needed. One is sluggish, and I need to add some graphite? or dry Teflon? to ease it. I have 2 other switches -- 5021 and 5122 -- the switch has a "6-" in front, but the boxes don't.... but got on ebay, and am not 'collecting" so not a problem. the right hand --5021 -- only switches one way, the other way just hums lightly, when the control lever is moved, but no movement. The other -5122- works fine. Neither switch will "automatically" switch to the correct direction to prevent derailment. Both have plastic pins in the two short "control" tracks, but do not respond to an oncoming train. The manuals say they should. HMmmmmm. As light as they are, and with as much plastic, are they really supposed to ? or is there some other issue?. As always , Thanks for your expert advice.

[lionelsoni]

As you must know, these turnouts are powered from the track; so the track voltage may be too low to operate them if you're running your trains slowly.  It is possible to rewire them for operation from an accessory voltage.  This is not easy and should include the (simple) electronics needed to keep the coils from overheating when the train stops on the turnout.

Several of the connections inside the turnout are crimped, not soldered, and may develop high resistance or open circuits with age.  Again, it's not easy to get inside to fix these.

And, if the coils have been overheated from continuous operation, the symptom may be melting or distortion of the plastic bobbin that they are wound on, making operation difficult or impossible.  If it's not too bad, you can fix it by drilling through the center of the bobbin.

[TrainLarry]

For the 1122's, take the covers off and lightly grease the pinion and gear. A little grease under the swivel rail may be needed also.

For the Right Hand  65122 that does not switch one direction, check for proper wiring from the controller to the switch first, then switch the controller out with the other one.

If the insulating pins are in the proper place and the non-derail function does not work, there may be an internal wiring problem in the switch.

Larry

[richardm47]

Thanks for the suggestions. The layout is small, so yes, I run slow, or the engine will roll. I could bank the tracks.... a later plan, probably. Before trying switches on the layout, I tested all 4 with 2 double controllers and an single. Got the same results on the one that moves only one way, and the rest did fine, but I was not able to check the non-de-railer, as I just used a section of track hooked to the transformer. After reading the suggestions, I tested all 4 without an engine and full track power.... all 4 including the "one-way-er" changed appropriately. So they will be re-tooled and I'll assemble my clever double reverses another time. I had thought about changing for accessory wiring, but decided it would take too much time. I have seen several posts and diagrams, just didn't want to get into that if possible. I ripped apart a perfectly running layout to re-configure, and my grandson is not too happy..... but the weather is warm and the sprinklers call, and so the train room is "under construction". I will add some grease to the gears and under the sliders, but the main reason is lack of power, so I will go back to the simple oval, and re-wire the switches. But I can get things up and running and grandson can get back to unloading milk, coal, logs and barrels. Thanks for the quick solution. After I re-wire and re do the layout, even with the switch that only goes one way, I can at least count on it moving appropriately when I use one of the others to change the direction. I may be able to fix that one too. Good thing I like to tinker..... Thanks again.....

[TrainLarry]

To check the non-derailing feature, power up the switch and use a short wire to jump the outside rails on the curved section, then the straight section. The switch should throw in both directions. The controllers do not have to be hooked up to check this function.

Larry

[servoguy]

Here is my post on fixing 1122 switches.  

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=4142

Have fun

[richardm47]

As always, expert advice from experts is what I expected, and you did not disappoint.....Going off line for a while... summer fun calls and trips to family. Then when get back,,, probably a lot of yard / house catch-up. But this is Oregon, and it will eventually rain, and then can get to the electronics. I will take apart switches and solder as indicated in the above link...great directions !.. then will also change to constant voltage as explained in the other post. But it will be a while before I get to that. The "tinkering" is my relaxation..... the running is the fun. So the layout will be up and running in its old configuration, so grandson and I can play. He's only 5, so he may be interested in the electronics for one switch, but probably not 4, but who knows???? .Thanks again for a super reply....So many trains, so little time...... Richard.

[richardm47]

027 switches work... sort of.....

Well, I thought I had fixed my problems... I took all the switches apart and followed as best as I could the directions on the excellent "refurbish link".  Adding more cars (weight) made the engine need more track power, so all 6  switches worked both ways and non-derailer functions ok...  but.... sometimes they hum when the train goes over... probably not critical, but they randomly uncouple the cars....  So I did some "continuity" checks with a simple meter.   All have various cross-overs from outside rails to middle.  I suspect that is the main issue causing the uncouplings.  2 are newer 5121,  5122 pair -- one of those checks out perfectly, the other has the cross-over between center and outside...  All four 1122's -- the older ones -- have issues.  I thougt I was very careful when re-assembling.  

My assumption is that there should be no "continuity" between outside rails and middle, nor any from the post next to switch motor to either of the other two posts.  If that is the case, then my project is to find and eliminate any of that.  Ironically, the train runs fine, the switches switch when the control lever is pushed and if not, the non-derailer takes care of things.....  If it wasn't for the random uncoupling.... which caused a major derailment, when the engineer wasn't paying attention..... Things would be fine.... as it is now, my grandson gets to sound the "alarm" if a derailment happens.... he loves those sounds.

Thanks in advance for the excellent advice.

[TrainLarry]

For the 1122 turnouts, any continuity measured between the center and outside rails is due to the bulbs in the turnout and any lighted controllers. Disconnect the controllers and remove the bulb in the turnout and check continuity again.

Any other continuity in the turnouts could possibly be a slight shorting of the wide frog rail to the swivel rail where the 2 get riveted together. Make sure you make all measurements with the turnouts disconnected from the rest of the layout.

Larry

[lionelsoni]

Are the uncoupling problems with electromagnetic couplers?  The shoes that are meant to touch the fourth and fifth rails of the uncoupling section have ridges on either side that are meant to keep them from touching anything else.  If those ridges wear down, as they will, the metal rivet in the center of the shoe may touch a center rail as the car goes over a turnout, and operate the coupler.

[richardm47]

Thanks TrainLarry and lionelsoni for saving me a lot of grief.... It is so great to have others with experience helping. us neophytes !

.... I forgot about the lights and lighted controllers --which I like about the older switches , and my grandson wonders why the "brown" switches don't light up.  So now I think I may not have as big a problem as I imagined.   I will check the couplers for wear, too.   The 5021 that did not register continuity was not connected to a controller.   I had isolated all switches, also looking for track insulation problems, as I am using old tubular 027 -- but the track is fine.  So maybe I really did fix the problem when I re-did all the switches.  I think I checked continuity with the first two, but then just redid the rest.

Thanks.   I am feeling better about my design not needing too much tweaking.  Now on to some coffeepot reading...... :)

[richardm47]

Again Thanks TrainLarry and lionelsoni for saving me a lot of grief.... It is so great to have others with experience helping. us neophytes !

After removing all switches from the layout and taking out the lights in the 1122's, I have found a few issues.   I am assumming that continuity between the non-derailer control rails and center power rail is ok, as all had that.  Several of my pivot rails did not make good, or made intermittent, contact with the outside rails -- maybe causing the uncoupling problem.  One of them still has black paint covering and offered no continuity, while the others have been worn down to bare metal.  I did find that I had not made good contact on a couple of switches, for the small triangle frog and the bottom plate, but I don't think that would cause the uncoupling, but maybe?  The other culprit could very well be the metal pins on the cars themselves.  Several of the older ones seem to have weak springs and hang down or may be easily jarred down which would also cause the uncoupling.

But thanks to you , I only have a few problems to search... Again this is a great resource.... as always is mentioned... "don't do this  .... and don't ask me how I know"....  the voice of experience speaks.

Trains keep us young --models and prototype alike....

[TrainLarry]

The continuity you are measuring between the control rails and the center rail is the switch coil resistance. One end of the coil is connected to power (center rail) and the other end is connected to the control rail. When the train wheels bridge the control rail with the other rail (ground), the circuit is completed and the coil is energized.

The weak coupler armature springs should be replaced, as they will eventually cause random uncoupling.

Larry

[richardm47]

more random uncoupling... I had a workaround -- I simply put a small band around the couplers to keep them from opening when the central button reacted to some of the switches.... but now the grandson wants to really uncouple now and then so we can move operating cars to different places.... Up until now I have manually done that, but he realizes the function of the uncouple track.... too smart for 5 yr old....   so now I have to figure out how to raise the buttons so they don't contact the center frog of the older switches.. or do something to the switches? . any suggestions?  For now he is fine that I am searching for solutions.  That wil allow for some problem solving.  It doesn't take much to randomly uncouple, and not always the same switch.

 

thanks for wonderful forum.... yes it would be nice to have spell check, but most of us can understand....   and it's worth the trouble.  I have been back frequently to see what others have asked and solved several of my own problems.

[TrainLarry]

The disks or 'thumbtacks' for the uncoupling mechanism should not uncouple when traversing turnouts. They are magnetically activated, and should only operate when energized by the uncoupling track. If the uncoupling disks are physically touching the rails on the turnout, the trucks need to be serviced and the springs for the armature plate need to be replaced. Weak springs cause the armature plate to hang down and the disk to contact the rail. This is not a turnout issue, it is a truck/coupler issue.

If you can, post a clear, close up picture of one of your problem couplers to identify the parts needed to be replaced/repaired, or the road number and type of car so that info can be researched.

Larry