York report

[Anonymous]

The annual trip to york was again a smashing sucess. Meeting old freinds and making new ones is what york is all about. Although i only bought some scenery material it was great. In the orange hall the MTH booth was the best of as far as presentation. They did have the H-3 on display and for those that like 19th century locos this will be a must. The MTH GG-1 with its operating pantographs is awesome. The AtlasO booth also had a display of their newest items that will be coming. The GP60M looked great as did the GP9 and the Alco diesel. Lionel had their scale GG-1 on display and it looks great also. The rest of the display really needs an updating. The K-Line display really looked nice and is 2nd behind MTH's. The new reefers and the shay were 2 of my favorites. The CTT booth was also very nice and it was great to meet some of the people that puts out one of our favorite mags. Thank you Bob Keller for being so nice, we had a nice conversation about our fav. mag and the forum. [:)][:)][:)][:)][8D][8D][8D]

[brianel027]

I guess I'm feeling a little philosophical this morning. If you have never been to YORK, then it is certainly a show that you want to attend at least once - if nothing more than for the size and scope of it. It certainly blew me away the very first time I went.

The YORK show is more than just manufacturers showing new product and meeting dealers and hobbiests. I will go as far as to equate the YORK show to that of a special interest lobbying group heading off to Washington, DC and meeting behind closed doors with a group of legislators. What comes out of that meeting may OR may not be of the best interest to all concerned parties. But it will be of the best interest to those in direct attendance.

One should consider that the average age of the typical TCA member could be best summed up as "older." Their economic status could be summed up as being "more well to do." Remember folks, it costs money to belong to the TCA, not to mention the cost of actually traveling to York, Pa. (especially if you have wife and children in tow). Not to mention the somewhat higher cost of a hotel room during the duration of the YORK show (hotel owners know when a buck can be made too!). Nevermind having any money left after all this to actually buy some trains!

I get a hoot out of reading all the reports from YORK over on the other forum. I guess the Lionel display this time around wasn't as good as the others. Or the K-Line display was second only to the MTH display. Oh well. That was this year. I can recall when the K-Line display was a poor third to the others, so things change. One thing it is a sign of, and that is the intense heated competition of the major train companies to out do (and possibly outlast) each other in this somewhat shakey economic climate.

I also get a hoot out of all the specific requests for this company to manufacture this specific variation of this specific locomotive or car. Or that the detail level on this particular scale car isn't detailed enough. It's been said that these are ALL just toy trains. But using that phrase "toy trains" might get you in trouble in the wrong company.

I recall when an HO modeler visited my layout and told me I was the very first Lionel guy who he liked. I asked why? He said it was because I was doing what the HO guys have been doing for years... scratchbuilding, custom painting and making my own variations by kitbashing... techniques tantamount to treason in the world of Lionel trains.

The Model Railroader magazine always has ideas and articles on how to turn one kind of locomotive or railroad car into another type or variation. This is something the 3-rail guys do very little of probably due to the "financial investment" element of the hobby. Funny how the old Lionel catalogs and advertising used the line "A lifetime investment in happiness" instead of the line "A financial investment for your retirement."

I also like to bear in mind - although it could be a statistical aberation - that the majority of modelers I know all use either 027 or 0 tubular track. All are non-scale traditionally sized operators and the majority all run traditional control. In the clear minority, only one uses TMCC and only one uses DCS. I'm certain that the typical YORK demographic is probably very different. Which brings me back to the lobbying group comparision: what's good for the vocal minority isn't always good for the silent majority.

But that brings me back to the heated competition between the companies. In a probable decreasing sized pool of buyers, the companies are out to grab as many consumer dollars as they can. No doubt this is why they all issue the same kinds of products (scale Milk cars anyone?). Company A is not going to sit back and let Company B sell a product that they don't have - even if it means flooding the market (F-3's anyone?) and these products are mostly high end... because the folks that have the money to travel to YORK and to buy trains there want the high end products.

In an other post some place, I made a reference to the collector days being over. Allan Miller took issue to say we are all collectors. Which is true if one considers the dictionary meaning of the word. That would very well make me a collector also. BUT I do believe the "collector" days when someone could buy one of everything in a catalog, stick it in the closet and then pull it out next year to have it triple in value - those days are mostly over with at least for the foreseeable future. I'm certain the kinds of trains I collect are of very little financial interest to a monetarily concerned colllector. I have an uncle in the TCA who is always telling me my trains are junk... of course this is coming from a guy who doesn't even run trains, so one man's treasure is another man's.... etc.

Anyways like I said, I guess I'm feeling a little philosophical this morning. Hardly a news report from YORK here. More of a commentary at the end of the news broadcast....

So now back to our regularily scheduled programming.

[Anonymous]

Brainel, I really liked reading your thoughts on the hobby. I agree with most of what you said, i am now building a hi-rail layout. I just got done scratch building a connecting bridge to the second level. It was fun and of course i can say i built it. You are right about the investing of trains days are over. I never bought trains because i thought i could make money, (my investments go into the stock market) The trains i buy are because i like them plain and simple. Remember though there is no right way or wrong way in enjoying your trains. The reason in having them is to have fun. It does not make a difference if it is HO, O,G or whatever.

Dave

[Big_Boy_4005]

I think we should make a distinction between collecting and accumulating. A collector, as in the C in TCA, is someone who seeks out specific pieces, and buys them to place on a shelf. Always mindfull of their value and condition, a true collector's trains are not toys, as they are never played with. They are artifacts of a time long passed, a memory of what once was.

At one time back in the early 80's Lionel tried to create new collectable trains. I was a collector then. When the market became flooded, I gave up, and turned into an accumulator.

I think the days of the true collector are nearly gone. There are a few purist holdouts, but the manufacturers have pretty much returned to making toys and scale models. Beautiful, fun and expensive to say the least, but not collectable.

The TCA has a real dilema. If they wanted to remain true to their founding principles, they would throw all the manufacturers and dealers out of York, or at least segregate them in such a way that the public had access as well. Simply reserve a few halls for members only, and let everyone into the rest. Anything less is a disservice to the hobby.

The flip side for the TCA is to grow and change with their membership. This may be what they are trying to do at York. The problem is that some of the "old boy" rules are still in place, namely the entire membership application process.

Is the TCA only for true collectors, or is it for everyone?

[brianel027]

Good question Elliot? Maybe there needs to be a name change.. the TOA (Train Operators Association), the TBA (Train Buyers Association) or stay with TCA with the new name being the Train Consumer Association or the Train Cacophony Association (based on how much disagreement there is with train guys as to what should be made, what trains are better and which operating system works best).

I personally vote for the last one there.

I'm sure the TCA has thought about this. I could be the risk of rocking the boat, upsetting some folks because of the changing times.... no one like change, especially if you are comfortable with the way things already are. BUT after all the hobby has changed, and therefore it would seem change will come to the TCA also.

Even highlighting this change more will be the new course (remaining to be seen) that will be set by Calabrese at Lionel. I've already read some fearful thoughts that, heaven forbid, Lionel starts putting a little more emphasis on mass marketing more toy like trains. Gasp!!! Keep the ambulance on standby...

I suspect that Lionel would be wise to not completely abandon any segment of the hobby. TMCC is important to Lionel. The traditional operators are important, as are more toyi***rains to appeal to the next generation, as are the current scale-sized, more prototypical detailed train operators. Nevermind the collector element of the hobby. As the old saying goes, it's hard to please everyone. Gotta give the train companies credit for trying as hard as they have.

Just the train product today is more advanced and diverse - as are the various groups of folks who run, collect and operate trains - the TCA will have to break from it's image mold to diversify and reflect the changes that are happening in the hobby if it is to grow and remain vital. Just as the train companies themselves are having to change, even if some of that change is of short-term interest: that is, going where the immediate money is with scale detailed trains. (Side note: I couldn't help but notice the Rugged Rails line was completely absent from the recent MTH catalog.)

By the way folks, it may seem like I'm down on "collectors." Not at all. The "collectors" have done a lot to keep this hobby going, especially in the lean times of the mid-1970's to mid-1980's. It was the possibility of the new trains being worth more that helped fuel some sales, no doubt. But then in the early 1990's things started growing of their own accord. Classic Toy Trains and O Gauge Railroading magazines probably helped too: 3- railers had never had their own magazines before. And whether you are down or not on MTH, Mike Wolf certainly deserves some credit for raising the bar. And even if he did copy many early Lionel pieces, he was selling them for less than Lionel making it possible for more people to have and own these items!!!

What always has irked me about the "collectors" is the attitude that anything made by Lionel is somehow sacred and collectible. I remember one time getting into a discussion with a collector about repainting. He gave the line I just mentioned, so I aksed how much a particular car was worth, noting the book saying it was worth $25.00. The guy told me it was only worth a few bucks because it had no box and was in pretty beat up shape. SO what's the big deal about taking these pieces and giving them new life?!!

Granted, there will never be any more original postwar Lionel pieces ever again.... there's a finite number of original trains. But equally worth considering is that the numbers of people who appreciate and collect the original Lionel pieces is also a finite number that is gradually getting smaller and smaller.

A very long time ago, Lionel Trains were made for folks to have fun with. And now, after a long trip around the plaster of paris mountain, the purpose of this hobby is going back to where it started... running trains and having fun.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Brian, you have made so many good points I don't know where to begin agreeing. In addition my kids just got here and we need to have dinner. I also think we have two similar topics going that we may want to merge into one big one. In a way TCA and York have almost become synonomous. I already copied my previous post over to the other one, and added to it. My point is I need to run right now, I'll be back a little later. I really want to talk about this.[;)]

[Anonymous]

Guys, I have been harping about the TCA for years now to change their ways. All i hear is why i don't run for office, I DON'T RUN BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE THE TIME! The TCA is run exactly like in was in the 1950's. The rules of no photographs at york or the use of cell phones are are just one example. OK two!! They really need some new thinking or the rolls of the TCA will shrink to nothing. Btw i was not checked once in going into any hall, my york badge was on my shirt under my jacket and not one security person asked to see it. If they don't actively promote the hobby thru the biggest show then there is no hope. We as members must push our opinions for change. Let the board know, you never know we may wake them up yet.

Dave

[Big_Boy_4005]

Dave, you've hit on the rule issue that goes right to the heart of the problem. MONEY.

The problem is that people think these trains are worth so much, they are willing to do anything to get them. It is complaints from members over time that have given rise to all of these rules.

I'm sure you've heard the stories of the lengths that some people are willing to go to get the trains they want. Conversely there are stories of people who are willing to cheat in order to make money selling items by misrepersenting what they are. It all comes down to money.

Why no photographs? Because a photo might give a person an unfair advantage finding a particular train, or remembering where something is. Cell phones would allow people to team up, again giving someone an unfair advantage.

We have taken what was once a child's toy, and built a culture around it. The innocense of youth replaced by the greed and folly of second childhood. Where did we go wrong?

Just thinking about all of this, I am more repulsed by York and what it represents than I have ever been. For the first time in over 22 years, I am giving serious thought to not renewing my membership, as I no longer believe in what the TCA stands for.

If I didn't have so much time and money tied up in my layout, I would seriously consider chucking it all and going to HO.

[brianel027]

Despite what you've said Elliot, I wouldn't go to HO. It's not out of dislike of HO. I just like the Lionel type trains I have. Period. It matters to me very little what anyone else thinks. I was repainting and kitbashing years ago when it seemed to be much more of a crime, and I still did it. Why? Because they were my trains, bought with my money and I was going to do as I wanted regardless.

Over the years, I've gotten some shots for my viewpoints, which is okay. Whenever I read a thread about the newest scale engine, I'm bored. How about a new SD-90 that is scaled down and non-scale to run on 027 track? Talk about mutiny on the Bounty?! I can just see all the criticism of that move now... SO I'm out of the loop as I usually am. SO what.

I loved my trains as a kid. I know I must have. And it's still fun for me today. The money/collector element does annoy me. As do the scale modelers who are never ever happy with the latest offering because the marker lights are a scale 8 inches too low!! But I don't let it stop me. I have only once paid more than $35-$45 for an engine (that's no typo... it's in tens not hundreds of thousands of dollars).

This hobby is about fun and running trains. Those who collect for monetary sake are slowly now having to smell the coffee. The trains they thought were worth a billion dollars are worth it in FUN, not cash. Sure, some will always be worth something. But it is not like the days 10 years ago when everything was worth big money. Not so now.

If all these collectors really want to do something to redeem their souls, they should give their trains away when they pass from this world. That's right - give them away to KIDS!! I promise you the look of joy in a kids face from running these trains is worth more than any price tag on any train... I've seen it, still see it and know it to be so.

And to show where I'm at, I've entered a few of those contests like the one where they were giving away the Lionel (I believe it was) Rio Grande F3 engines. I had already contacted a camera crew because had I won it, I was going to repaint it to the Penn Central and film the whole thing - make a video of it and use some Neil Young music as the background (his song "Don't Spook The Horse"). I thought it would have been a laugh riot. I'm sure I could have gotten some death threats too, and that's the sad thing.

But the whole hobby is unfortunately stuck in the past. That's obvious by looking at the roadname offerings on starter set product, which are by far mostly the same old moth-eaten roadnames that were being offered on train sets 50 years ago. The products that get the modern roadnames are mostly the expensive scale sized products that families with kids cannot afford. The K-Line Keystone Classics are a prime example of being stuck in the past. These affordable cars should have been made with current up-to-date roadnames or product connections. Instead, these new affordable products are marketed today to kids that were kids 40-50 years ago, not to the kids of today. Beleive me, Conrail and Norfolk Southern mean way more to kids than do the Pennsy or the New York Central! Sorry guy, but those were OUR railroads and they've been gone a long long time.

Folks need to lighten up. It ain't about money. It ain't about personalities, or companies or price guides or scale versue non-scale... it's about fun. And marketing the fun with some current roadnames will do more to help grow the hobby than all this conern over control systems and scale proportions.

I never recall JL Cohen advertising his trains as "great future collectibles." I believe the emphasis was on operating and fun. And the marketing was aimed at fathers and sons. There's one clue from the past that should be used today.

[cnw1995]

It's interesting to see such different perspectives on the hobby - from a 'toy train' to 'scale high-rail' approach, with collectors who pursue certain items thrown somewhere into the mix - I'm guessing the future continues to belong to those buyers with the most resources - which I would define as the scale crowd - who want what they want in the most exacting way (manufacturers seem to try to guess at what is wanted or otherwise 'follow the leader'). There seems to be a relative abundance of somewhat lower cost cars and engines for the non-scale runners floating around - depending on how you define 'lower cost' - usually still too high for me personally - but probably due to the growth of eBay and online vendors which dilute the pool of sellers, and allow one to better search for something. And as others have noted, there will eventually be a decline in collecting for 'appreciation' or some sort of investment purposes as the demographic continues to age - and more collections become available than buyers. I'm impressed with how the 'toy trains are valuable' ethos has impressed its way into the culture. 'Everyone' knows a Lionel train is worth a fortune. Heck, there are still myriad forum posts from people trying to value something. And as we've noted, it's not necessarily true across the board anymore.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Good morning Brian. I would never switch back to HO for my layout, but as you can tell, I was pretty disgusted last night. The source of my disgust is not really the trains themselves, it's the collector mentality. Suddenly after 22 years, it hit me how silly that behavior really is.

Collecting trains??? What purpose does it serve? We have grown men fighting over child's toys, because they think they are worth a lot of money.

I guess it was about 10 years ago when I stopped worrying about what my trains were WORTH. It has just taken me this long to realize that I have no business being in the TCA. The trains that people find to be most collectable, are the trains that I am least interested in. Pre war has no value to me, and I have learned that post war runs like crap.

HO guys don't collect Athearn, they buy it to run it. So the TCA lets the manufacturers and dealers into York. It's the manufacturers including Lionel, that have all but destroyed the collecting aspect of the hobby, by flooding the market with trains. The TCA has shot itself in the foot by losing sight of its purpose.

Today's trains aren't collectable, and never will be. They are however, still fun to play with, and that's exactly what I intend to do with mine.

I am going to go and change my signature to reflect the fact that I will not be renewing my membership in the TCA next month.

[Anonymous]

Guys, Remember trains are supposed to be fun, no matter what they are toy, scale or something in between they are meant to be played with ( for you scale guys, operated). I have never bought any train in hopes of making money when i sold them, if you do then you are just being foolish. Be happy with what you have and have fun. I won't allow the TCA or anybody else to stop my enjoyment of my 3-rail scale trains. I still like york dispite the TCA or eastern div. board.

Dave

[cnw1995]

What is interesting to me, Dave, is how a significant part of our society - when confronted with a toy train - or as Brianel noted, specifically a Lionel train - doesn't think of it as an object of play or a toy or model, but as a collectible with real value - which doesn't happen with the smaller scales as Elliot noted. I'm just relating anecdotal experience for the sake of seeing if there's a larger theme here, and to ponder how did this occur. Probably because 30 years ago, there was a larger group of people in hot pursuit of anything with flanged wheels carrying this brand. This is probably most manifest in some of the high reserve prices you might see at auctions and online.

[Anonymous]

Doug, You are right in the percieved value of anything with a Lionel name on it. But as always there are people out there with more money than brains. remember it takes 2 parties to make a sale and if that person who buys that item that you percieve as overpriced then what is the true value. That item is only a certain price if somebody is willing to pay it. About a year ago i saw somebody pay over $2000 for a set of boxes for the 700E, the value of the boxes to me was $0 but to that other person it was worth what he paid for them. Will he ever get his money back, maybe, maybe not but it was a great deal according to him. I only buy trains to run and have fun, i don't need a second job tracking their value

Dave