How to date a Lionel 1513s train set set question

[rack776]

I had won 3 of box lots at an auction, and between the 3 lots, Each box had parts for items in the other boxes, mixed trains & plasticville so I think they all came from the same owner.

I think I found a complete Lionel 1513s train set from 1954-55.

It is a low end 0-27 set with a 2037, with smoke but  no whistle 6026T tender, a red baby ruth box car, yellow sunoco tank car, black Lionel gondola & caboose, I do not have any of  the original boxes just the cars. The cars I have match the descriptions in the David Doyle postwar  book as the 1513s set.

All the info I have found on line states this set was produced in 1954 and only left over sets were available in 1955, Here is my question - the cars I found all have tabs on the couplers and silver rivits, which were not used until 1955.

Does anyone know of the 1513s set still being produced in 1955 with the tabbed couplers?

I paid $24 for all of it and I plan on keeping it together as a "set", I know it is not worth very much even if I did have the boxes.....I'm just curious if I rescued an old original set from being broken up that had been together since the 1950s.

-Thanks, Jason

[teledoc]

Jason,

     The set was available in both 1954 and 1955 and all the components were identical in both sets.  The only difference was the need to produce depleted 1954 inventory with updated parts from 1955, hence TAB Couplers on some of the cars.  I have the "Standard Catalog of Train Sets by David Doyle" and am noticing that the Rarity and price is different from '54 to '55.  The 1954 set is rated as Rarity 1, with value of $175 in excellent condx., whereas the 1955 set is rated as Rarity 4,with value of $200 in excellent condition.  Another note on the 1954 write up, mentions the 6015 Tank car:  some of the earliest productions of the 6015 were "PAINTED" yellow on grey shells, which is the really hard to find and rare tanker.  If you have a particular question about a Lionel Set, I can most likely answer it.  I have the books in my possession.

 

Jerry

[phillyreading]

Jerry, I have a question about a pre war engine and tender, was hoping that you might know if it was sold a set from Lionel. It is a 249E with a 2225T tender, it came in a set with some freight cars, could it be 1938 or 1939?

[rack776]

OK that makes sense, thanks for the reply! I have the book as well but I had not noticed the 2 years had different prices.  My book is kind of old though,  I have the 2nd printing, is there a newer one out?

[teledoc]

Ok,  what is listed in "Doyle's book" shows the 249/249e locos as only coming with a 265 tender and not a 2225 tender.  All 249's were equipped with 3 postion E units, but not all nameplates had the "E" on them.  The 249 was a 1936 issue, and used variations of the 265.  The 249 (type iv) was only one listed with a 265W, where all the others listed just the 265T.  From going through the book, the 2225 tender was only paired up with either the 238 or the 265E.  So I would say that you don't have an original set, but probably still nice to have.  If you tell me the numbers on the other cars, I can give you dates of issue.

Jerry

[phillyreading]

Jerry, the set has a 2359 or 2369 dump car, a green hopper( not sure 2453?), a red caboose. I used to have a lot of boxes but the basement got flooded out years ago, so I don't have a set number to go by. However it has O gauge on the under side of the engine, and all the car have electric solenoids with slide shoes to uncouple with. Will try to find more info over the next week or two. FYI, my dad had this set and he never bought extra freight or passenger cars until the 1960's, set was purchased near Reading or Philadelphia PA. Anyway I doubt my dad mixed up anything in the set, so I think this could be a Lionel variation that wasn't reported, having a 249E and 2225T tender.

[teledoc]

Phillyreading,

I did some checking through Doyles Prewar book and the numbers you posted don't appear in the book.  I'll start with the Dump car- possibly the 3659 prewar version with Black base and Red dump bin had SOLENOID COUPLERS issued 1939.  The hopper has to be #2653 Green (type II) with SOLENOID COUPLERS (type II) issued 1939. The Red Caboose would be #2657 (type I) 1938 (type II) 1939.  That puts those 3 cars in 1939.

There were only 4 sets using the 249e (NONE WITH 2225 TENDER) with a 1939 issue that comes up with SET# 237W consisting of 249E, 620 floodlight, 655 boxcar, 659 dumpcar, & 657 caboose, if all of the items were from same year.

I am suspecting that your father may have had a SET assembled wherever he purchased it, with those particular items, and it wasn't an original factory set.  Many dealers/hobby stores would do that type of deal just to make a sale.  I would imagine that the whole set was made up in 1939.  Without the original box/boxes, there is no positive way to identify it as original.  The makeup of the total package doesn't come up as an original issued set.  Either way, if the whole set is in decent shape, and able to run, its something worth having.

[phillyreading]

Teledoc, I have the first set you mention with the number's; 3659 (black base red dump bin), 2653 (green hopper with metal brake wheels on each end that are silver in color), and caboose 2657. All have the solenoid uncouplers with slide shoe. I wonder who would have broke up the set like that?

[phillyreading]

From what I have found in Greenberg's guide, the info on the 2225T tender is the same. Maybe my grandfather wanted the set for his son but could not afford the whistling tender and the hobby shop owner swapped it out, as this set is from my dad. My grandfather worked for the Reading Company as a building maintenance person and retired from the Reading Company.

[teledoc]

Phillyreading,

I think that wherever your grandfather bought the set, may have had the dealer assemble the  cars, you have, into what he wanted; even to the point of breaking up an existing compete set to make the sale.  It is the only plausible explanation of the pieces you have.  All the documentation for sets that were led by the 249E don't show any of the components you have.  Many hobby shop/dealers were willing to break up existing sets, just to make a sale complete.  If at some point, you were to sell it (very doubtful), the inclusion of the 2225 tender would bring a higher price than with the normal issue of the 265t.  Hope this solves your quandry.

Teledoc (Jerry)