I have a modern zw with 180 watt bricks. I might need to replace this transformer. I can attach 4 190 watt bricks to the transformer for a total of 720 watts. However, the drawback is that the maximum wattage I can get out of a single terminal is 190watts (four terminals maxing at 190 each to produce 720watts).
This is a problem because I've read about the dangers of using more than one terminal post for inter connected loops. This means that I only have 190 watts max for all of my track. My layout has 3 interconnected mainlines, and I would like to be safe and have 1 transformer post providing power to all three loops while running 6-7 trains. Is there a transformer that produces more than 190watts out of a single terminal post, and if so, which one and what is the capacity?
I have watched videos where people prefer the Lionel type Z transformer over the Postwar ZW because the type Z does not get a reduction in voltage like the Postwar ZW. Is this correct, and why is that? They are both rated at 250 watts. Actually, I sometimes see zw's rated at 275 watts. (Not sure if these ratings need to be divided by four to get the maximum wattage per terminal).Thanks!
The Z and ZW ratings are input, not output.
For output, the TPC 400 will allow combining bricks for a maximum output of 400 watts to one power district.
Although you don't mention specifically, your operation appears to be a command environment. There is no advantage to having a large output to run all trains at once unless you anticipate that they might all be in one power district at the same time. Dividing up districts with power supplies is OK, and actually safer.
Rob
The Z does put out about 24 or 25 volts, more than the (postwar) ZW at 21. Power is the product of voltage and current; so, in principle and assuming that they are equally efficient, a 250-watt ZW can safely supply a little more current at its maximum voltage. But the power, current, and efficiency numbers are a little fuzzy for these devices. For example, both the Z and ZW have 15 ampere circuit breakers. But 15 amperes at full voltage is 315 watts for the ZW and 375 watts for the Z, rather more than their input-power ratings.
The 275 watt ZW is a very-similar later model, the ZW-R. Any of the Z, ZW, or ZW-R can supply its full power or current through any one terminal.
The reason for not connecting transformers' output terminals together has to do with the likelihood that the output voltages are set to different values, which can happen accidentally even if you intend to set them the same. The transformers used with TMCC and the like have fixed output voltages that are meant to be exactly the same, assuming that they are powered from the same input voltage. So it is safe to run between blocks powered by separate examples of these transformers.
Bob Nelson
The new ZW-L can be configured to single or multiple output.
Do you need a constant voltage for command control or variable? If you need constant voltage I recommend using two or more phased ZWs. Break your layout into block section and connect seperate but phased ZWs to each.
I should better explain what I am trying to accomplish. I would like to run 6-7 conventional locomotives on 3 interconnected loops using an automatic blocking system. One of these locomotives might be command controlled, and will switch from loop to loop while the automatic blocking system prevents train wrecks. I think the only option that I have is to use one transformer terminal to power all three loops so that I can sit back and watch everything run automatically without using toggle switches. I think if I used multiple transformers or terminals I would need to pay attention and use toggle switches, right? I don't trust that I can precisely match the voltage output from two or more transformers. It can never be perfect. What if one transformer is experiencing more load and the voltage drops without me knowing?
I would like the ability to have a lot of automated conventional action. Accessories and street lamps are out of the picture as they will be powered by several separate starter set transformers. I just need to dedicate one big transformer with one terminal connected to all three loops powering all 6-7 conventional locomotives. I think this is the safest way to go, right Bob?
I got my 'modern' ZW with the two 180 watt bricks working again. It turns out that I needed to reset the breaker. I noticed each terminal has a maximum of 180 watts output.
BigAl956 - I looked at photos of the ZW-L on ebay and it too shows a maximum of 180 watt output per terminal. I don't understand this if the maximum input is 620 watts. 180 watts x 4 is 720 watts... Something doesn't add up. If the ZW-L can be setup to have all it's power coming out of one terminal, wouldn't it say "maximum output 620 watts"?
So, I am thinking that the Postwar ZW or type Z are still the most powerful transformers for variable voltage conventional operation. It appears that they can provide a maximum of 250 watts or 275 watts from a single terminal given that the breaker's limit is 315/375 watts. Did I misunderstand something?
lionel2986So, I am thinking that the Postwar ZW or type Z are still the most powerful transformers for variable voltage conventional operation. It appears that they can provide a maximum of 250 watts or 275 watts from a single terminal given that the breaker's limit is 315/375 watts. Did I misunderstand something?
Yes, the Z and ZW are limited to about 200-220 watts max output when cold, 180-190 watts max output when warm.
The best way to accomplish what you want to do is with equipment you already have - your 'modern' ZW. with four 180 watt bricks(just add two more), using the single handle feature to control the output of all four channels, and divide your layout into 4 blocks. The 'modern' ZW does not have the block-bridging problem that the original does, and will work fine for your purposes.
lionel2986...I looked at photos of the ZW-L on ebay and it too shows a maximum of 180 watt output per terminal. I don't understand this if the maximum input is 620 watts. 180 watts x 4 is 720 watts... Something doesn't add up. If the ZW-L can be setup to have all it's power coming out of one terminal, wouldn't it say "maximum output 620 watts"?
Like your modern ZW, the ZW-L also has a limitation of 180 watts per channel, and also can control all 4 outputs with one handle as an option. The maximum, however, is limited to 620 watts total, which is divided up electronically/automatically if the limit is approached(for example, if the load is the same in each power district, it will put out 155 watts per channel - when you back down on demand from one channel, the other three will go up).
ADCXRob - "The 'modern' ZW does not have the block-bridging problem that the original does, and will work fine for your purposes."
Can you explain why this is? I assume that you are not stating it is ok to use different voltage settings for different blocks with a modern zw, but are saying it is ok only when all the terminals voltage settings are matched with the internal jumper. If I have this wrong, please let me know. I saw an image in my 'modern zw' manual showing a modern zw using the four terminals at different voltages to control locomotive speed during incline, decline, and level running of a single loop. I thought having different voltages coming out of the different terminals is dangerous in all circumstances, and I'm going to assume this is still dangerous with a modern zw.
As Bob repeated numerous times, the safe solution is to use diodes or rheostats to reduce voltage to a particular block. What if my transformer is using diodes inside to regulate the voltage? Do all diodes convert AC to DC? If my transformer were using diodes, my output would be labeled DC instead of AC? Why don't toy train manufactures do this as a safety precaution? I find many posts where people (including the authors of Lionel's instruction manuals) think it's ok to use multiple transformer posts to power the same loop at different settings, and most transformer instructions do little to warn against this (in my manual, Lionel encourages this. See page 17: http://www.lionel.com/media/servicedocuments/72-2982-250.pdf).
I am beginning to think that the equipment I already have is perfect for my needs. I just need to pickup two more 180 watt bricks. :)
lionel2986Can you explain why this is? I assume that you are not stating it is ok to use different voltage settings for different blocks with a modern zw, but are saying it is ok only when all the terminals voltage settings are matched with the internal jumper. If I have this wrong, please let me know.
I did not mention anything with regard to to different voltage settings, but this is OK too with the modern ZW as well as controlling all four blocks with one handle.
The reason is that the architecture of the power supply regulation does NOT provide for short-circuiting on the ZW controller, and the triacs do not care in the least if they are back-fed(momentarily or otherwise) with a higher voltage setting from an adjacent block. The channel set at the higher voltage will carry the load to capacity before relying on the lower set channel.
lionel2986I saw an image in my 'modern zw' manual showing a modern zw using the four terminals at different voltages to control locomotive speed during incline, decline, and level running of a single loop. I thought having different voltages coming out of the different terminals is dangerous in all circumstances, and I'm going to assume this is still dangerous with a modern zw.
Bad assumption, it is not dangerous, it's perfectly OK. Original ZW? NOT recommended. This does cause a direct short across the transformer secondary windings that is not circuit breaker protected.
lionel2986As Bob repeated numerous times, the safe solution is to use diodes or rheostats to reduce voltage to a particular block.
For conventional multi-tap transformers, this is the correct way.
lionel2986What if my transformer is using diodes inside to regulate the voltage? Do all diodes convert AC to DC? If my transformer were using diodes, my output would be labeled DC instead of AC? Why don't toy train manufactures do this as a safety precaution?
Don't worry, it does not use diodes. You are now confusing a couple of different issues here. Anti-parallel diode arrays are used for voltage dropping with more consistent results than resistors or rheostats, which vary in their performance based on the current in the circuit(diodes limit voltage, resistance limits current).
lionel2986I find many posts where people (including the authors of Lionel's instruction manuals) think it's ok to use multiple transformer posts to power the same loop at different settings, and most transformer instructions do little to warn against this (in my manual, Lionel encourages this. See page 17: http://www.lionel.com/media/servicedocuments/72-2982-250.pdf).
It IS OK with modern power supplies(and appropriately delineated power districts - using fiber/insulating pins) - not with conventional multi-tap transformers.
lionel2986I am beginning to think that the equipment I already have is perfect for my needs. I just need to pickup two more 180 watt bricks. :)
Precisely.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.
Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month