Lionel TMCC on 50hz

[Anonymous]

Hi all,
I've just got my first TMCC equiped engine and a command base and cab 1. When I start the engine it starts up at about 1/3 full speed. This only happens in command mode when I run under conventional mode I have no problems. Is this a problem with the locomotive or a problem with running it on a 50hz supply? Is there a simple fix for this problem?

Thanks,
Ben

[Buckeye Riveter]

[#welcome][#welcome][#welcome]

Welcome Aboard, Ben! Does the NZ stand for New Zealand?

I believe you have hit the nail on the head with the 50hz supply, but there are electrical engineers here on the forum that can help you better than me.

[nblum]

You can adjust the startup speed in command mode by following the manual's instructions. This is also called setting the stall or minimum speed.

Make sure the command base and locomotive switches are in the "run" position.

Address the engine (ENG 1 usually)

Press the SET button on the bottom of the cab-1, inside the panel. Headlight should flash

Start locomotive up at minimum speed using the big red dial moving it very slowly until the locomotive just starts moving.

Press the SET button again.

You can also set momentum and maximum speed

[johnsgg1]

I used Lionel's TMCC system for three years in Germany using 220/235 stepped down to 105/110, 50 Htz. All the electronics ran fine.

The only thing I noticed was the 17% reduction in motor speed because of the 50 Htz versus 60.

[wrmcclellan]

Ben,

Make sure you set your power to the track at full voltage (18 - 20 VAC). Since the unit runs OK in conventional mode, it appears all should be well in TMCC mode. However, if you do not set the track voltage to 18-20 volts, you will see reduced speed performance (based on track voltage as in conventional mode) and the electrocouplers will not fire as there is insufficient voltage to the electromagnets in the couplers.

TMCC injects a 455 kHz frequency onto the track ground rails so the antenna in the locomotive can pick it up.

There is a potential interference issue as 455 kHz is the 9,100th harmonic of 50 Hz. However, my opinion is the level of this harmonic is substantially low compared to the 455 kHz TMCC signal which runs about 1 - 2 volts peak-to-peak on the ground/common rail.

When you operate in TMCC, you should see the red LED on the TMCC Command Base controller flash every time you enter a command. So if you move the red wheel for speed (up or down), you will see the LED flash for each speed step. If you blow the horn, you will see the LED flash, etc. If you have any interference, you would see the LED flash and no appropriate action from the locomotive.

Also make sure you have the TMCC Command Base properly grounded and that your house wiring is properly grounded. This means making sure the transformer that powers the Command Base is plugged into a well grounded outlet. The 455 kHz frequency is a low radio frequency and apparently if there is an insufficient or no earth ground for the Command Base, the 455 kHz radio wave is distorted and can lead to eratic operation and other effects such as the locomotive headlights flickering in synchronization with the Red LED on the Command Base. So make sure you are using a power cord adapter that connects the hot, common, and ground connections. Many common adapters from US to NZ do not include a ground connection. For TMCC, the ground is critical.

Good luck. I have only been in NZ a few times in the Auckland transit lounge on the way to Sydney. I hope to vist there someday.

Best regards.

[lionelsoni]

John, I suspect that the slowdown was due to the lower voltage, not the frequency.

Ben, is the transformer rated for 120 volts (or whatever voltage you are using) at 50 hertz? There is a risk in running a transformer at full voltage at 50 hertz if it is not designed for it. A transformer designed for 120 volts at 60 hertz should be derated to 100 volts at 50 hertz so as not to overheat it. This would drop its 18-volt secondary to 15 volts, which may be too low to be useful.

[Anonymous]

NZ is New Zealand our mains is 230v 50Hz I'm running trough a old Lionel ZW and I get a full 20vac out.

It's the low end speed I'm not getting not the high end. Everything else on the engine runs ok except the low end speed. I get crewtalk, towercom. whistle, bell etc all perfectly just not the low end speed.

I've emailed Lionel about it and they said to reset my stall speed which is the first thing I did.
The transformer I'm running the command base is correctly grounded I've checked it with a meter the hot, common are of course isolated whould this be the problem?

I'm going to get an auto transformer today and try that and see if it solves the problem.

I do get the slow speed operation if I lower the track voltage to about 14-15v but then the coupler won't operate every time.

Thanks,
Ben

[ben10ben]

Poor slow speed performance is often a characteristic of TMCC engines without speed control, not something unique to 50 cycle current. This is one of the biggest complaints about non-cruise equipped TMCC engines.

[nblum]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nblum

Sounds definitely like symptoms that will be fixed by setting the stall/minimum speed as described above. Your locomotive is starting up at a relatively high speed which is the sign that this needs to be done. Are you sure the headlight blinked when you pressed the set button? And that the locomotive took the setting when you pressed the set button the second time? Sometimes this has to be repeated to make sure the settings have been adjusted.

[lionelsoni]

Ben, are you saying that you have an unmodified ZW's primary connected directly to 230 volts at 50 hertz? I just looked it up: "The 'ZW' transformer can be used with power lines of 110-125 volts 60 cycles only."

[Anonymous]

QUOTE:

Ben, are you saying that you have an unmodified ZW's primary connected directly to 230 volts at 50 hertz? I just looked it up: "The 'ZW' transformer can be used with power lines of 110-125 volts 60 cycles only."

I'm using a ZW running through a 230-110 stepdown transformer. Lionel did make a 220V ZW but I've only ever seen one.

QUOTE: Sounds definitely like symptoms that will be fixed by setting the stall/minimum speed as described above. Your locomotive is starting up at a relatively high speed which is the sign that this needs to be done. Are you sure the headlight blinked when you pressed the set button? And that the locomotive took the setting when you pressed the set button the second time? Sometimes this has to be repeated to make sure the settings have been adjusted.

Thanks I reset the stall speed and then entered the stall speed again and now it has a lot lower starting speed. Thanks for all the help.

I'm currently building a new layout and I'm wanting to install complete command control to the layout switches etc now I've figured that bit out I can start saveing for some more Lionel.

[lionelsoni]

Ben, that's a relief. However, you're still a bit over the line heat-wise, even if you're getting exactly 110 volts from your stepdown transformer. You mentioned an autotransformer earlier. That would be one way to get the ZW to a safe saturation level. If we take Lionel at their word that the ZW can stand 125 volts at 60 Hz, 104 would be the limit at 50 Hz.

To get to 104 volts without the autotransformer, you could use a 6.3 or 12.6-volt filament transformer with a 2-ampere secondary to buck the output from your stepdown transformer. Another (far-out) possibility is to use the fixed 8-volt ZW winding to buck that voltage. You would have to wire it in series with the primary inside the ZW, upstream of the circuit breaker. I wouldn't do this unless the stepdown transformer were isolated so that I could ground (earth) the point of connection of the 8-volt winding (which I would make the low end) with the primary.

[Anonymous]

Ben,

I don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but there may be something that doesn't work quite right when it comes to TMCC and 50 cycles. I was contacted by someone in the Lionel train club in England earlier this year (I can't find his contact info, sorry) and as an aside I recall that he mentioned problems with brand new TMCC locomotives (made in 2004 with the newest version of TMCC circuit boards) and 50 cycles. He also told me that Lionel said to him that it wasn't going to address the situation.

I wish I could remember more. Perhaps if you email Lionel and ask about brand-new TMCC locomotives (instead of TMCC controllers) and 50-cycle compatibility.

Sincerely,
Neil Besougloff
editor, Classic Toy Trains

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Ben, that's a relief. However, you're still a bit over the line heat-wise, even if you're getting exactly 110 volts from your stepdown transformer. You mentioned an autotransformer earlier. That would be one way to get the ZW to a safe saturation level. If we take Lionel at their word that the ZW can stand 125 volts at 60 Hz, 104 would be the limit at 50 Hz.

I've been running the ZW for about 6 months now and had on heat problems. I think the transformer has enough iron for it not to be a problem. I've got two friends that have ZW's and neither of them have had problems. I'm thinking of getting rid of the ZW and using Lionel TMCC home built 18v transformers and two track power controllers to run my layout.

QUOTE:
I don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but there may be something that doesn't work quite right when it comes to TMCC and 50 cycles. I was contacted by someone in the Lionel train club in England earlier this year (I can't find his contact info, sorry) and as an aside I recall that he mentioned problems with brand new TMCC locomotives (made in 2004 with the newest version of TMCC circuit boards) and 50 cycles. He also told me that Lionel said to him that it wasn't going to address the situation

I emailed lionel about the problem and below is their responce.

QUOTE: ]u]
50Hz does affect TMCC. TMCC was designed for 60Hz.There are converters that will convert 50Hz to 60Hz. Unfortunatly, we have no info on them. [/u]

I did a google search on frequency converters and they are quite expensive. I wonder if I only need 60hz on the track or if I need 60hz into the command base as well?

Maybe I'll just have to give up with TMCC and try MTH DCS.

BTW Neil, I get Classic Toy Trains here in New Zealand and I look forward to them each month.

[Anonymous]

Can I have the zw????[:I][:P][bow]

[lionelsoni]

Ben, it may be that you are not using the ZW to its full 250-watt rating, so that, although the heating due to magnetizing current is more than normal, the heating due to loading is less, and the total not excessive.

What worries me is that the Lionel manual pointedly says that the type VW can be used at 50 hertz but that the ZW cannot:

"Type VW transformer, rated at 150 watts, can supply continuously 110 watts, or approximately 8 amperes at the working track voltage. This transformer can be used with power lines of 110-125 volts, 50-60 cycles.

"Type ZW transformer, rated at 250 watts, can supply continuously 180 watts, or approximately 14 amperes at the working track voltage. This transformer can be used with power lines of 110-125 volts, 60 cycles only."

[Anonymous]

Ben,

I wish I could remember more about what the guy in England told me. It had to do with TMCC, not the power supply itself. If I remember anything more during the week I'll post it.

Sincerely,
Neil Besougloff
editor

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all the information.

I tracked down a guy that has tmcc running OK herein NZ he's going to bring it to a train show in a couple of weeks. He said it runs better through MTH DCS system.

I'll keep you posted on any devopments

Ben

[daan]

@Bencalcott, a friend collector in Germany has a 220 volt ZW transformer.. (He's lucky!). Something which I doubt to be the problem here, but could be a problem if someone uses the "radio-safe" track connections which where made in the 70's by numerous of manufacturors, those are equipped with filters which filter out the high frequency which could be emitted by sparks etc. The high frequency which is used to run the engine in TMCC is also filtered out by them! But then you don't have any control's and not just a low end speed which doesn't work.

[daan]

And to frequency convertors, you could write to factory's explaining that you're looking for old frequency convertors, since those things are used in huge amounts to control the electromotors there. See that you get one designed for 220 volts and not for 380!.
Usually those things are replaced now and then by newer versions and the old ones could be usable for your layout. (It makes an output signal which can be set between 0.1 and 300 Hz)

[Anonymous]

Ben, perhaps you might want to consider an MTH Z-4000. According to the instruction sheet , it is designed to run on 120VAC, 50-60 Hz power. This has an electronically synthesized sine-wave output, probably 60 Hz but I would email the MTH service dept. to be sure. You would still need your stepdown transformer, of course. I recently upgraded from a postwar ZW to a Z-4000 because my ZW made "arcing" noises from the extremely short current pulses drawn by my newer (cruise-equipped) TMCC and PS2 locomotives. My dealer recommends the newer transformers for the newer electronics and he was right. Hope this helps, best regards.... -Rand

[Anonymous]

Just a note on the postwar ZW and its frequency capability: All iron core transformers can, within reasonable limits ( which using 50c with a 60c transformer would be), be connected to reduced frequency just by reducing the applied line voltage in the same ratio. Thus 5/6 rated voltage if you connect to 50/60ths rated frequency is okay.

The usual US market ZW (both the 250 and the 275-watt) was designed also to be sold in Mexico, where the line voltage was 125v. I measured the core, and concur in this; plus there is the usual allowance for overvoltage on the line of at least 5%-- I can't recall for sure if the customary commercial allowance is 10 percent. I do know of one experiment where the core full-saturation voltage was above 160 volts, altho the current drawn (it wasn't reported as measured) seemed excessive from core vibration. In normal use, the magnetizing, iron loss, and pilot lamp current total to about 5 or 10 watts from the line (as I measured it). The 275-watt unit has a less efficient core, and that figure is a little higher-- about double for the magnetizing component.

I'd be careful because the line coil is deeply buried and may develop hot spots, but if your 230-110 stepdown transformer has adjustable taps and a voltage-out meter (as some German units did) you may be able to use some of the 5 or 10 percent margin to run above 104v. As noted, you've seen people doing this.

Electronic equipment is usually (in this country, US) designed to operate as well on either 50 or 60 cycles. I understand the design was done in the US, even though the boards come from Asia. As the 455 khz is a standard IF freq for something, I believe that is crystal-controlled. Now the power-controlling triacs of course have a longer duty interval (1/100 second, vs 1/120 second under 60c), but the same duty cycle (50%). But customarily US design as noted will take 50c as a design basis. Hopefully there has been no Asian re-design. So I think you are just getting a pro-forma Lionel answer.

Perhaps someone here who speaks regularly to a Lionel tech person can get a more informative answer for you.

Frank

[lionelsoni]

Frank, consider also my previous suggestion that some of the heat-dissipation capability provided for load current could be traded for a modest amount of saturation-exacerbated magnetizing current.

455 kHz is (was?) used as the intermediate frequency for non-automotive medium-frequency radios, and for many other kinds of receivers because of the resulting wide availability of components. However, it is rarely desirable to have an oscillator at the intermediate frequency; so I wouldn't take the use of that frequency as evidence of a crystal-controlled oscillator, although it might be.