Hi all,
I have been hiding out on the MR Layout Building forum and received some awesome help in creating my track plan.
Since I also received a lot of help from this forum, and I am modeling in S gauge I am starting a new thread here to share my progress.
In short I have painted the room, assembled the Mianne Benchwork that I ordered and am beginning to build the table tops.
I have added some photos below of the progress to date.
First my track plan which I must again thank the guys on the MR Layout Building forum. Without their help I would still be scratching my head and wondering how to do elevations and grades.
Next is a shot of the completed benchwork with two sets of bus wires run one for the upper or outer lop, and one for the lower or inside loop.
And finally a couple of pictures of the table top I have started to work on.
The upper level is just sitting on some 2.5 inch blocks when I have everything cut out and fitted this upper level will be 5 inches above the base level.
So please take a look and share any thoughts you have.
Thank you,
Aflyer
Aflyer, Great start and I like that benchwork. What kind of wood are you using ? It does not look like plywood.
I have a new addition I am working on but it is in stall mode till I pay some other bills.
Joined 1-21-2011 TCA 13-68614
Kev, From The North Bluff Above Marseilles IL.
KRM,
I can relate to the bills, I have been spendign pretty well on this new layout. Th egood news is I have been planning this in my head for three years, so I had a little $$ tucked away to get started.
The benchwork is real nice, I may look for a sales position at Mianne, Tim Foley was a joy to work with, he re-did the plan a couple times when I changed my mind on some things. I had the whole thing assemble in about a day
The bench tops are actually plywood, I got it at Lowes. It was not advertised on their website but it was in the store. It is just called hardwood plywood, 1/2 think, and 7 plys. It was $35.95 a sheet, so really not that much more than the 1/2" CDX.
It has a nice finish, and soon I will know how well it bends for Cookie Cutter subroad bed.
Thanks for the kind words,
Looks fancy. Only thing I see is to make sure with scenery and etc, you have plenty of clearance for your tallest car or engine when going under the second level. I am sure the track on the lower level is on a strip of wood or so you can reach it from under layout without moving the layout. Keep up the good work. Keep us posted.
God bless TCA 05-58541 Benefactor Member of the NRA, Member of the American Legion, Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville , KC&D Qualified
CHIEFEAGLES,
Hi, and thank you for the response. I think the 5 inch clearance will be good, it sure clears everything I have in the roster today. Hidden track is new to me, and I have to admit it is a little scary, but it sure makes a nice looking layout.
From everything I read on these forums, I need to run the trains for a while to insure I have solid track work before I start any scenery.
I appreciate your warning, and that is the great part about these forums, so much education from you guys who have been there and done that already.
Aflyer - Not sure, but the tallest car you might run is a crane car. Sitting on rubber roadbed and fully extended mine measures 6 1/2" tall. Of course you can lower it to under 5" tall.
Keep on posting your progress please!
Ray
Bayville, NJ
Life is what happens to youWhile you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
Ray,
Good point, I do have a Brownhoist crane car that mostly sits in the yard collecting dust. And for that reason I didn't think to measure it.
The good news is that the lower loop is primarily passenger service and the upper is primarily for freight and work train running.
I do want to be able to switch them, for moving in and out of the yard and for the turn table and service ares. So I guess I better go check mine out to see how low it will go.
The tallest prototype cars are double-stacks and some auto racks, at 20 feet 2 inches, which is 5.16 inches above the railhead. So you're probably good for just about anything in interchange at 5 1/4 inches.
Except for pantographs. But it's unrealistic anyway to have the pantographs of a GG-1 or an EP-5 all the way up. My solution is to put a little tether inside the pantograph to keep it at a height that it would have under wire, and low enough to clear my lowest obstruction.
Bob Nelson
Aflyer,
The layout is looking good! Sorry about forgetting ot make usre there was room for the signal lights on the remote switches on my plan. After double-checking the plan, I cna tell you that there are no other locations where the track arrangement will have to be modified to clear the turnouts. Again, sorry about that.
I can't tell from the photo, but if you haven't already, you will need to put fiber pins and a pair of feeders in because of the reversing loop on the end.
The rubber roadbed looks great - I wish I some...
S&S
Modeling the Pennsy and loving it!
Hi Bob,
Thanks for the reply. I do have an EP5, but unless I am going to build a catenary system, I will have to keep the pantographs down.
It's amazing just how high they are, I put one up running at one of our club shows a few months back, and found out the hard way that they don't fit under the the A?F trestle bridges. Fortunately no permanent damage but it sure stopped the train quickly.
Thanks again,
Hi S&S,
Thanks for the complement, it is coming slowly, but making progress. I will post a couple more photos later tonight.
I got the second half of the upper deck on the long loop roughed out yesterday. I put the second half of the yard together and had to cut some 1/2 tracks a little shorter to fit it all in, but it looks as good as it can using the AF turnouts. No need to apologize, I will have to find some bushes and shrubs to hide them somewhat from view. I am even considering trying manual switches, they aren't quite as imposing.
I am not following you about the reversing loop, I kind of traced it out on the plan and I am not seeing where the polarity would be reversed.
I spent some time on the shorter loop yesterday, and I am thinking now I will do the upper loop on a separate sheet of plywood but do the loop grades/elevations using foam. No decision yet, still working it out on paper.
I like the roadbed two, I have purchased some of it on eBay, some black some grey. I clean it real good and paint it with rattle cans. As you can see in photos I am using some pieces that have not yet been painted. But right now it is just to help me in cutting the plywood and checking for fit.
Whoops! I was thinking O scale. For S, the highest prototypical model would be only 3.78 inches, so 4 inches above the railhead should be plenty.
I would reccommend keeping the remote switches in the yard, since some of those turnouts are pretty far back. The yard will be a busy place, so if you have to keep reaching far into the layout, you will soon get sore arms and possibly a sore back.
I would suggest using manual switches in locations where the operating lever would be less than 24" from the edge of the benchwork, 18" in locations where the switch would be operated a lot. The turnouts in the yard area and in staging should be remote for easy operation, but elsewhere you could use manual switches. Using more remote switches will make operations easier.
The turnback curve and the yard ladder form a "baloon track" which is where the right rail meets the left. The back section of track including the turnout will need to be made into a reversing section. You should see if a DCC autoreverser would work with American Flyer AC power - an autoereverser would make running much easier. I would suggest getting some books on wiring a model railroad. Anything that relates to two-rail DC will also work with AF AC (with the exception of circuts involving diodes, but the basic block wiring should be the same.)
The block separations will need to be built into the trackwork, since to make them you will need to install fiber pins. Good wiring will be required for good operation, so you may need to stop laying track for a while until you work out the wiring. Don't worry, everybody has to do this, and in this stage of cunstruction, patience is best.
I would STRONGLY advise against using foam for the base below your grades and in any place where it would be providing support for the track. The foam will compress, and you will end up having problems with the trackwork. Foam is okay for HO scale, but AF is much heavier and the metal ties will dig into the foam. Use wood risers to support the grades and plywood beneath the track. The plywood will flex more than enough for the grades, and the wood will provide firm support. Open grid benchwork instead of tabletop will allow you to adjust the grade much more easily. Some books on benchwork might be of help.
You will want to have the backdrop tied into your benchwork, and it should be painted before you do any scenery work so you don't have to paint around the scenery. Later you can go back and touch up the backdorp to blend it with the 3D scenery.
The roadbed along the mains should be grey and the roadbed on the tracks and spurs should be black. If you're painting it anyway, it would look best if you touched up the ties on the grey roadbed with black paint to match the metal ties. A small brush would work best, but a 1/2" foam brush could work as well.
Remember, the blocks have to go in first, along with any reversing wiring. Test as you go to keep from having to chase down a short after wiring a large section.
Look into infrared detectors for determining the locations of trains in staging and on hidden trackwork.
Be patient. Carefully wiring and laying track will pay off later when you run the layout.
Attached are two photo's of the second half of the upper loop on my long leg.
This upper level will be 5 inches above the main level when finished, but my goal now is to just get all the sub-road bed cut and fit. Right now it is just sitting on 1X3 blocks.
I have put together most of the yard tracks and turn-outs just to insure that I have the plywood decking cut correctly. No track is attached or wired, just sitting there to work out the plan, cut short tracks to length and see that it all fits.
Thanks for looking,
On the switches thats a thought I could just use manual switches on the longest yard line, easy to reach, and they are the most visible. The manual switch's have a significantly smaller signal housing.
I am still not convinced I want separate blocks, I know it offers alot of train control, but I also can simulate blocks with a couple of Flyer Semaphores that I have, and I also want to be able to use Lionel Legacy system, not that I have bought it yet, but I do have a Legacy diesel and am considering a challenger, but kind of waiting to see what MTH comes up with for S Gauge.
On the bench work, I am just not sure how to cut the plywood for the lower loop, I think you are right another book with more details about cookie cutter building might be in order.
On painting the roadbed, my plan is to a grey overspray on the outsides to simulate granite ballast, but leaving the center mostly black to simulate leaking oils and grease.
The infrared detectors sound awesome, I was trying to figure out how to deal with the hidden staging tracks without leaving a peephole in the scenery, or looking under the layout.
Thanks,
I'd suggest making the separate control blocks anyway. If "Legacy" is like DCC with separate controls for each loco on the same track, then once you have the system, you could just wire the blocks together.
Until then, the blocks will allow you to run multiple trains. There was an articls in Model Railroader a few months ago on the subject, and there are quite a few books discussing the basics of block control. You will at least require kill switches on the four staging tracks to cut power to trains sitting on them. I would recommend putting DPDT switches with a center "off" position on each block to both reverse polartiy and allow you to cut power.
Get "How to Wire Your Model Railroad." It will explain block control much better than I can (I use DCC for my HO trains.)
Your plan for simulating oil and grease on your roadbed sounds great, but the center streak may come out too heavy depending on what you are going for. I weather my track by smearing black pastels between the rails over my glued down ballast, but since you are using rubber roadbed, it might work better if you airbrushed the black streak. Spray paint cans could also be used if you made a mask (and jig?) and had the mask about 6 inches away from the roadbed. The spray cans would give a heavier streak, though.
S&S,
I haven't made any final decision on blocks. I mentioned semaphore previously and I guess that is actually creating a block but with the use of insulated pins and the switch in the semaphore.
Looking forward to working on the roadbed I wan to make it look more like ballast than it does when it is a solid color.
A couple of posts ago you mentioned infra-red detectors for the hidden staging. Can you tell me more I can't find anything advertised to do that.
Check out stuff designed for HO trains. My knowledge is a little fuzzy in this area, but I know that several IR detectors are available through Walthers. The IR detectors can then be wired to LEDs to show you where the trains are. (This has also been covered in issues of Model Railroader that were printed in the last few years.)
I'm looking now at my Greenburg's American Flyer S Gauge Repair and Operating Manual, and by "semaphore", I assume that you mean no.759-a "Sam the Semaphore Man" or similar accessory. Sam the Semaphore Man is not designed for block control. No.759-a is used for temporarily stopping a train, and then restarting it again at the push of a button. You could use several 758-a units to space out two or more trains on the same track through judicial use of track trips, but will not allow you to operate several trains on the same track. Using the turnouts set on power-routing would be possible, but not efficient. In addition, the wiring would be difficult because of the necessity to locate where normal blocks will be required anyway.
To operate several trains, you will need a number of completely separate electrical districts to allow individual train control. A switch will allow you to determine which throttle/cab controls which blocks. I would recommend using a cab selector for each block, though other methods are used, such as a block selector for each cab. (How to Wire Your Model Railroad will get into this.) You indicated early on that you wanted to do some switching as well as mainline running. Switching WILL NOT BE POSSIBLE while a train is making laps on the main unless you have separate blocks.
Looking at a plan of your layout, you should probably have about 20-25 separate blocks when you are finished. This includes blocks whose sole purpose is to kill power to a staging, yard, or engine terminal track. If you give me a little bit, I can mark on a copy of your plan where all the block divisions should be for efficient operation.
Hi, I did find and read some articles, and look at some IR detectors last night. That is very interesting stuff for a novice like me. More to read on that subject, and as I said I really like the idea of knowing which hidden staging track is in use.
And yes you are on it, I do have a couple of 758's as well as a couple of 761's, the automatic version. This allows multiple trains on one loop without worrying about them running over each other. It is a crude way of defining blocks, but I can't see me running more than two trains at a time on one loop.
As for 20-25 blocks, I am sure interested in what you are suggesting, but I have a pretty big challenge with wiring the turn-table and roundhouse tracks. Then add all the turn-outs for staging and yard as well. So I can't commit to creating the multiple blocks as yet.
Here's the plan with block divisions: (there are 1 foot gridlines, the're just hard to see at this size.)
Thank you for taking the time to add the blocks to the track plan. As I said, I am not sure that I need all the blocks.
I guess I am old school on the wiring in general, and have always used the turn-outs to power the tracks between them in a yard or a passing siding.
I will do some more reading about blocks, and it will be a while before I am at the wiring and permanent track laying stage.
I am interested in hearing from other old school American Flyer folks about adding multiple blocks to your layouts. What have you found as major advantages?
Even if you use a digital command system that does not require blocks, they can be useful for isolating track faults.
Bob,
Thank you for the tip, and sorry for the delayed response. I was traveling last week and left the P/C at home.
Good morning all,
It's been a long time since I last posted, and I haven't made much progress on the layout. But I am getting started again and will post a few photo's this weekend.
I am about to start cutting my sub road bed, and trying to decide on the width. My rubber roadbed is 2.5 inches wide and I am thinking 4 inches for the plywood.
I know this is subjective and also depends on the amount of room between the tracks, however I am looking for any input you have to share.
Thank you in advance,Aflyer
I made some progress today, and am learning how to do the cookie cutter tabletop. I have posted a couple of photos below, please have a look and let me know what you thin.
Almost all the splices have been cut for biscuit joiners, but I don't plan to glue and screw stuff together until I finish all the cutting and fitting.
And the risers are just temporary to gauge the grades so far it is looking like all just below 2%.
And finally an end view looking down the twelve foot leg of the layout.
I have 6 feet of this leg completed and 6 more to go.
All comments welcome,
As narrow as possible on the upper ring, and as wide as possible on the lower curves. Constantly be thinking of side clearance for your equipment. Got any SD40-2's (aka the bull in the china shop) on hand? That's my conscious.
Looking good though.
Fifedog,
Hi, thank you for the response, I think they look to wide in these photos, but when I set the roadbed and track on it the look is better. I ended up going with a 4" sub roadbed and the flyer roadbed and track is 2.5" leaving .75" on each side.
No SD40's, but I do have a U33c which I plan to try once everything is roughed out, just to insure I will have clearance all around before I start gluing and screwing things together.
Hi all, a little more progress in the last week or so. I have posted pictures below, I now have all the sub roadbed cut, and the track is roughly cut and fit in place. The photos start on the short, 12 foot leg, and continue around to the longer, 16' leg. No bridges built yet, and I will probably just build a sub roadbed for each of the four tracks and build the bridges later.
I have decided to go with a farm scene and placed a barn, house, and a siding for the cattle pen and the milk car. I will add maybe a field, a pasture, and a garden, and maybe a farm pond. Comments always welcome.
Tomorrow I will take it all apart and start the real assembly on the lower level. I still need to level and square up some of the benchwork. I plan to glue down the road bed and start wiring track feeders to the bus.
The outer most curve leads to a bridge over the ravine connecting to the loop shown above. The two sidings are there to service unknown industries. The farm was originally going to be here, but this area seemed to cramped.
The upper level on this loop is only sitting on 2.5 inch blocks, when permanently placed it will be 5 inches above the base level.
The Yard.The turntable fits between the lead track and the roundhouse, and I have a water tank, but will add more work track coming off the turntable. On the lower lever will be the AF 799 passenger station.
All comments and help welcomed, and thank you for looking
Not a very exciting day workign on the railroad, but I did make some progress. The lower level sub roadbed is mostly attached to the benchwork for the short loop.
Not a very exciting but necessary job, I cleaned a bunch of track, and began the task of soldering the feeder wires. I went with a 14 gauge bus as I had shared earlier and based on lots of input I decided to go with 20 ga. solid feeders. And you are correct, this is much easier to solder to the track.
I found the red and white easily in a twisted pair from Lowe's it was 20/2 Bell wire. The green and black was harder to find so I ended up at Radio shack and got a couple of 25 foot spool so I could get started.
Attached is a photo of some sample sections with the feeders soldered, and a couple after I put the track back in the roadbed.
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