http://www.ebay.com/itm/AMERICAN-FLYER-O-Guage-3-Rail-556-The-Royal-Blue-Passenger-Train-Set-/221192162168?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item3380148b78
This auction is showing an American Flyer prewar Gilbert 3/16" O gauge Royal Blue set. It looks like it has been mildly customized by the Philadelphia and Atlantic decals that have been added. Does anyone recognize or see what might be going on with the 495 Observation car? I was not aware that AF made any of the "light weight" passenger cars with an observation deck and overhang. Is this a rare bird or is it a customized piece? I can't see any obvious evidence of the deck being added on judging by the pics.
This is a pic of my "Heavyweight Pullman" with observation deck.
This is a photo of my "Lightweight" Royal Blue passenger car. Note how the lightweights have the removable window frames that are painted a contrasting color. The Heavy weight with observation deck has a different window configuration and roofline.
Lover of all things Gilbert, truly a man ahead of his time.
My guess is that it is a home made item. The set looks to be repainted and the customization of the observation car looks simplistic.
NWL
I've been looking at closer photos of it that the seller sent. It is curious.. The silhoettes in windows, the Philadelphia and Atlantic decals, the black American Flyer Lines sticker/decal, the 496 decal and designation, the odd looking railing with a drum head that says seashore lines/PR.. but I have to say that even for a customization someone did a decent enough job on the sheetmetal. The railing takes away from the work on the sheetmetal.
Sadly, the prototype lightweight Royal Blue of 1934 (the one that was painted overall blue like the AF model) had a streamlined fully enclosed round end observation, so the effort in modification was wasted. Even the blue and grey 1937 Royal Blue, which was rebuilt from standard heavyweight cars, with arch roofs covering the old clerestory, had a solarium at the rear, not an open platform.
I've seen similar modification carried out on prototype cars, where the side doors and end panelling were removed giving a short platform. In most cars, the collision posts either side of the vestibule were retained for structural reasons.
M636C
The "lightweight" observation car is original Gilbert Flyer. They made a Pullman and observation in tinplate along with the New Haven style passenger and baggage cars. They also made die cast heavy weight combine and Pullman but no die cast observation. I am on the look out for the observation to go along with my tin plate Pullman that happens to be the same color of Tuscan as the one pictured.
Major I'm not sure I understand.. The Pullman observation #496 I have although tinplate is modeled after a Heavyweight including the attempts to model the Clerestory into the roof which is sans roof vents.. so for explanations sake I am calling it a Heavyweight, even though it is the same tinplate construction as the lightweight New Haven style Royal Blue #495 car (with roof vents) I show in the picture. Are you saying that Gilbert did in fact manufacture a Lightweight Royal Blue New Haven style observation car? The one in the auction is numbered 496 which is incorrect as that is the Pullman Heavyweight with observation platform. If there was such a thing as the Lightweight New Haven style with Observation deck made by Gilbert I would love to see paperwork, or confirmation of this. For now, I'm convinced that the auction is offering a homemade observation car for the Royal Blue set shown.
Major The "lightweight" observation car is original Gilbert Flyer. They made a Pullman and observation in tinplate along with the New Haven style passenger and baggage cars. They also made die cast heavy weight combine and Pullman but no die cast observation. I am on the look out for the observation to go along with my tin plate Pullman that happens to be the same color of Tuscan as the one pictured.
The pressed metal heavy weights were not painted blue. Only the New Haven style passenger and baggage cars were painted blue
Major The pressed metal heavy weights were not painted blue. Only the New Haven style passenger and baggage cars were painted blue
Yes that part is understood. I'm also of the opinion that there were no Gilbert lightweight (New Haven Style) observation cars as depicted in the auction listed above.. So therefore in conclusion the car in the auction is not an original but is definately a homebrew observation car.
I apologize. I did not at first notice the link to e-bay but thought incorrectly you were referring to the Gilbert Pullman observation that was in the picture posted. When I examined the e-bay photo I can only come to the same conclusion that you did that this was a homemade conversion of a Hew Haven car into an observation. A.C. Gilbert did not make such a car in regular production.
Here is an interesting thought, could it be a potential one of a kind factory sample? Without actual examination of the car everything is just speculation.
Major I apologize. I did not at first notice the link to e-bay but thought incorrectly you were referring to the Gilbert Pullman observation that was in the picture posted. When I examined the e-bay photo I can only come to the same conclusion that you did that this was a homemade conversion of a Hew Haven car into an observation. A.C. Gilbert did not make such a car in regular production. Here is an interesting thought, could it be a potential one of a kind factory sample? Without actual examination of the car everything is just speculation.
Major no need for an apology and thanks for weighing in on the subject.
I was initially intrigued by this car since the observation deck looks a little too good for an amateur job. For instance look closely at the scallops cut into the roof. These do not look like they were cut by hand, also where the body wraps around to the back door under the canopy is where the back doors on a New Haven would have been, not solid metal. The railing though looks amateurish or at the least not a regular production type?.. if someone had a pick of a Chicago Flyer observation deck on a passenger train that matched the scallops on this Royal Blue it might be interesting.
But Major you are absolutely right in that a first hand exploration of the car is what's really needed to determine what it is.. and at this point I'm not going to try to win this auction and gamble.
Cheers,
Pat
Gray CatBut Major you are absolutely right in that a first hand exploration of the car is what's really needed to determine what it is.. and at this point I'm not going to try to win this auction and gamble.
Hey Pat, are you saying that you are steering away from this because it's not original. Not sure how you feel about it but that would be the deal breaker for me.
Ray
Bayville, NJ
Life is what happens to youWhile you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
Ray if I thought this was an original or a prototype I'd be all over it. When I first saw it, I was a little excited because it looked better than typical homemade. I also thought I had seen some early Prewar Chicago Flyer observation cars with a similar awning. For a fleeting moment I thought that perhaps this was cut out using old factory dies (which wouldn't have been that old then). I was wondering if perhaps this was a special made for a Philadelphia Department store? Or something like that. There are however way too many unanswered questions and too many things about it that speak of homemade albeit a decent looking homemade. Without being able to look at it first hand it's a no go. So yes, if it's not original it's a deal breaker. I have a super looking Royal Blue set now so don't need one that was repainted and redecaled. I do like the Chugger tender though and would love to get a chugger in mine!
Maybe we can get Northwoods to get in on this conversation. He has way more knowledge of Chicago Flyer.
I don't think this is a prototype. If you look closely at the obersvation end and compare it to other ends on similar, but normal cars, it appears that the end of the car (or another) was cut off just aft of the side doors and then re-attached to the car to create the observation deck. This is especially obvious on the lower portion of the side, where the joint between the two pieces of metal shows. However, if one looks closely, it appears that the joint line along the side is visible further up the side as well.
Some issues with the set that leads it to being tinkered with, include that it has obviously been re-decaled using Chicago era decals, which are incorrect for the 3/16th Gilbert era set, as well as the road name decals. The only way I would bet on an item being a prototype is if it wears original paint and decals, which this set does not appear to have. Additionally, the windows with the people in them are not correct for the cars, a further indication of the non-originality of the set.
Oh, and although there are some Chicago era flyer cars with an observation awning, the awnings were separate pieces from the car/roof that were attached. The awning on this car appears to be part of the roof or has been attached to make it look as if it is part of the roof.
In looking at the other cars in the set, it appears that the car bodies are not formed so that they would have a portion that could be cut out to form the awning on this car, so it appears as if something extra has been attached to the car to create the awning.
I will admit to not being an expert on these Gilbert era cars, so some of the experts will have to read my comments and examine the car more.
Yes the window treatments are probably from postwar Gilbert. Those Silhouettes didn't come into use until later in the production. All good points. It is neat to see what was done though.
Gray CatIt is neat to see what was done though.
Agreed. When at all possible I try and recreate a set. Sometimes that's very hard to accomplish, as in a wide gauge set I'm building. The O gauge Royal Blue set is on my list but, I'll wait until I see an original set or piece one together.
Gray Cat Maybe we can get Northwoods to get in on this conversation. He has way more knowledge of Chicago Flyer.
Thanks for the compliment. I don't have as much knowledge as you might think. I haven't focused on the 3/16" O gauge equipment in my collecting because I have a lot of S gauge equipment from after the war and I hadn't really considered duplicating it with its predecessors from the prewar era. I've actually learned quite a bit from the information posted here, in the prewar 3/16 thread and the items posted to the prewar Flyer thread.
As far as an opinion: I think that the observation in the set in question is the work of a very talented modeler. To my knowledge Gilbert never produced an observation for these New Haven style sheet metal passenger cars. I have never even heard of any rumors that there was a factory sample for it. The observation car for the sheet metal heavyweights is pretty well known, even if it isn't very plentiful. Collectors have always wondered why they never produced an observation, and also why a handsome train like the Royal Blue passenger set wasn't continued after the war in S gauge even though the engine was used for a number of other sets.
If Gilbert had wanted to produce an observation they had raw materials to adapt. This is a #236 observation from 1939.
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
The handrail is standard square brass bar stock and brass strip that was readily available from hobby shops back then. The thickness of the sheet stock on the 3/16" cars is such that it would be relatively easy to cut and rework. There's enough metal between the car end and the door stamping to allow a modeler to trim off the end, complete with the wrap around corners and then cut out the door stamping and re-attach. Since the floor extends all the way to the car end the only thing the modeler would have needed to do was get a piece of tinplate or brass sheet and make an insert for the roof complete with scallops. Indeed (although I don't recognize the scallop pattern) one could have taken an existing piece from another car and just cut it down and put it on this car. Given the relative ease of a kitbash of this kind and also recognizing that Gilbert was very much into prototype models (this car is un-prototypical - for that kind of car anyway) I'd opt for a home custom as the source.
Just curious, this sold for $340. Was this a reasonable price?
I got my pre war Royal Blue and cars for a lot less than #340.00 not too long ago!
IN my opinion NO the set is not a good value at $340.. as this thread showed there was much debate about the originality of the set and whether or not it was restored. I think the nicest piece in the set was the chugger tender and even that was suspect as to condition since it was not tested and no pictures of it's mechanism. Along with Major I got my Royal Blue set pictured in the Gilbert AF prewar thread for less than $340 and mine is pretty darn nice and all original. I'm not an expert at Grading but I would say my set is a strong C7 or possibly a C8
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