MTH DCS + Legacy Control, newbie got some questions

[lmxu]

Hello All: 

I've read through the forum on some posts regarding MTH DCS and Legacy, but it's a bit over my head given I'm pretty new at this. 

This is my layout.  I have  

================
1  LIONEL LEGACY SD80MAC Conrail  powered by a CW 80
1  LIONEL Command controlled Baltimore & Ohio  6-18166  with 6 passenger cars powered by a CW 80
1  LIONEL Command controlled Virginian Rectifier set 6-11934 powered by a 1044 transformer
1  LIONEL conventional postwar 2035 locomotive + tender powered by a CW 40

1  MTH Protosound 1 F-3 AA Disel Baltimore & Ohio 30-21243-1 with 4 passenger cars powerd by a Z- 750
1  MTH Protosound 2  2-6-6-2 Allegheny  Chesapeake & Ohio + a lighted caboose powered by a 1033 transformer
================

As  you can see, I'm using 1 transformer for each track and running all in conventional mode and now I realize that's not the proper way to set it up. I better get a DCS system (MTH 50-1001 DCS Rev L) or maybe a legacy control system as well (Legacy 990?)

I want to get the DCS system first as from the readings I did,  DCS seems to be able to control everything?  My questions are

1.   What types of power supply do I need to buy for the TIU? or can I just connect all my CW 80 transformers and 1033 & 1044 transformers to the input side of the TIU? Really bulky that way?

2.  I see only 4 outputs on the TIU.  As you can see, I have 6 tracks,  how do I hook it up to 6 tracks? Do I need to buy 2 TIUs?  If so, can 1 DCS remote control 2 Tius?

3.  Do I HAVE to buy the legacy 990 set in order to control the Legacy Conrail? 

4. What about the command controlled sets? Do  I just connect the TIUs directly to their tracks and DCS remote will recognize them? 

Sorry if the questions sound completely stupid, as the more I read, the more confused I get. 

Thank you! 

 

 

 

[phillyreading]

From what you have posted I would suggest getting the Lionel Legacy system first. You have more Lionel that have command control than MTH. Also don't run your MTH with the CW-80 transformer as it may damage the MTH PS-2 engine if used long term. Most command control can run in conventional but won't have all the bells and whistles of command control. The last time I checked, prices can vary, the Legacy system was over $250.00. MTH's DCS command control is near $275.00, and it may not work with Lionel's command control. Your older Lionel transformers will work with your newer trains, however you will need better circuit protection than the older transformers have, the breakers in most older transformers just protect the transformer and not your trains.

[phillyreading]

With any command control set-up you need to run power to the command base and then to the track. Sometimes you may need a seperate power supply for the command control base. All engines will need to be added in on the handheld remote unit before being able to work. A newer transformer other then the CW-80 is needed for your MTH trains. With six tracks you may need two TIU units if you want to use MTH's control, but I would buy Lionel's Legacy first and see what you can run with that, not sure how many tracks a Legacy unit will handle.

[lmxu]

Thanks Philreading.  Now, with the circuit breaker, is this time suffice? I found on ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1033-17x-5amp-Circuit-Breaker-for-Lionel-Transformers-/310385734890?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item48446e74ea

and in terms of Legacy Control,  I did some search, all videos I'm seeing is 1 legacy base connect directly to 1 track. How do I connect 1 legacy base to multiple tracks and control different trains? 

Thanks!!! 

[CB&Q]

attaching one wire to all tracks depends on your setup.

for the simple one wire method to all tracks you can simply attach the one wire from the Legacy command base to first transformer and then daisy chain to the other ones but in doing so you will have created what is known as phasing transformers as one so if one common wire is wrong or if a transformers plug is reversed from the rest you will have a problem so easy check is attach a wire from one common post now power up both transformers if you touch the other transformer common post with that wire and get a small spark or no spark all is good if a big spark remove plug from 2nd transformer wall outlet rotate so plug ends are now reversed from the way it was plugged into wall outlet plug it in again and do same test with that wire if now a small or no spark those 2 transformers are now in phase connect that wire to the 2nd transformer and now do same test until all transformers are in phase whew I'm pooped! 

a new age awaits you as the advances in modern electronics is amazing what they can do now as to smoke units ringing bells smoke cylinder effect and on and on.

 I would suggest the Lionel Legacy command base system as it's simplistic in wiring using above wiring and phasing of all transformers

conventional engines will run as designed using the legacy cab-2 remote just as you would using the transformers handle and direction buttons

not that I'm knocking DCS it is just a more signal issue system to deal with for a newbie.

as for a breaker a simple in line fuse holder from radio shack put inline with the hot wire with a 10 amp fast blow fuse will serve you and newer electronics very well use one for each transformer and buy extra fuses for those oops moments! 

for the DCS command system think of each TIU output as one track powered so 1 transformer equals one track or separate loop being powered as you now have. if to that you insert a 12 position MTH  terminal strip and connect the hot wire to the red post and the common wire to the black post now all those other screw terminals have power so from that one connection you can in fact wire up 12 loops of track or also known as 12 separate blocks with the center pins removed to create an individual powered block. so you only have 4 transformers so basically one transformer could power both loops but remember in conventional mode what you do speed wise for one will also affect the other loop unless both loops have command control engines on them in which case each engine only responds when it's engine ID\name is selected the other will ramble on as if nothing has changed. also powering 2 loops with a small transformer will overload it if running 2 engines with smoke lighted caboose and other with passenger cars all lighted so now is also the time to start thinking a bigger transformer to run 2 loops off of MTH makes a nice Z-4000 it has 2 separate throttles and will handle 2 loops easily with smoke units electronic horn\whistle and so on featured engines and handle lighted passenger cars.

I hope some or all of this helps you understand more about what might be your best option right now. also if you have a local hobby shop well stocked with trains and needed transformers and has a in store layout go see them and ask them to show you some of these things and see if they will let you use the remotes and decide for yourself what direction you wish to go.

the best part is just find one way to really enjoy running your trains and go from there it can be anything you wish it to be with a little work and imagination.

[lmxu]

Thanks CB&O for such a detailed explanation!!!!

So let's see if I get this correct. 

for my 4 Lionel tracks. I should use 1 Legacy 990 base and connect to the phasing transformers( I have 4 of them in total).  I see the instruction videos here

http://www.lionel.com/CustomerService/ProductInstructionalVideos/video.cfm?documentID=6492

Each transformer has an inline fuse between it and the track.  While operating, all 4 transformers are powered up to the max voltage as Legacy remote will be able to control the speed of every track. Is that correct.  


Then in this case, that leaves my to MTH tracks to DCS system or I can just power them as I have now in conventional mode.  

Now I have to do some research on how to install "inline fuse". Do you happen to have any instructions on it? I'll  ask the radio shack guy as well. 
 

[CB&Q]

Now I have to do some research on how to install "inline fuse". Do you happen to have any instructions on it? I'll  ask the radio shack guy as well

                                                       see below

the inline fuses are easy cut the wire to track so now you have the wire from transformer and the wire connected to the track as 2 separate wires now connect one end of the inline fuse wire to the transformer wire and the other to the wire going to the track.

you now have an inline fuse protecting your trains and your transformer from an electrical short\derailment. if you think about the wiring instructions the name of inline fuse will reveal why we call it that.

Each transformer has an inline fuse between it and the track.  While operating, all 4 transformers are powered up to the max voltage as Legacy remote will be able to control the speed of every track. Is that correct.  

Yes

Then in this case, that leaves my to MTH tracks to DCS system or I can just power them as I have now in conventional mode.  

Yes to either way is correct

happy to help you hope I didn't confuse you in my first post.

[lmxu]

Thanks again CB&Q. I'm going to radio shack today! 

[Edit:

Ran to Radio Shack and the guy doesn't  know what I'm talking about and just pointed me to where they stored the fuse holders and looks like they are out of stock. I'm assuming it looks like the one showed here, step 1

http://www.toytrains1.com/DCS_Tips.htm

]

I assume the 10 amp fast fuse (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103757) goes into the fuse holder container?  

Now, after I cut the wire on the fuse holder , when I connect it to the cut wire from the transformer and tracks, can I just use an insulated caps and twist them in there without soldering or will an alligator clamp do? 

One last question! I just realized that 1 of the 4 transformers  will be operating a conventional train, in that case, how can the legacy command system control it?  

I did some reading, it seems like I need either a TPC or  a combination of powermaster+power bridge in order for the legacy system to talk to it? 

Thanks again for your help.  

[CB&Q]

One last question! I just realized that 1 of the 4 transformers  will be operating a conventional train, in that case, how can the legacy command system control it?

Answer the legacy will control it as a conventional engine why? because conventional engines dont have the electronics to see that there is a signal present on the 2 outer common rails for engines with command control boards in them to read and acknowledge it's presence and so stays quiet until you address that command engine.

   below is a link that will answer most of your questions.

http://lionelllc.wordpress.com/projects-and-tips/wiring-your-layout/introduction-to-command-control/

in reality it is easier to run conventional engines on a separate track it just makes life so much easier!

you can run both but you will spend more time avoiding a rear end crash between the 2 trains and have a less than pleasant experience.

a short intro to a TPC unit it can be setup to run either conventional or command controlled engines.

here goes... first turn power on to legacy base unit after lights stop flashing turn transformers on this doing this is a must as it's been known to happen engines take off at full speed if both command base and transformers powered up at same time!

now using remote you would push TR and select say #1 then at bottom of remote are 4 buttons one says SET next 3 are L M H if you want to run in command then you push the L button if you want to run in conventional you push the M button.

then on remote on the right is a boost-direction button it also pivots up or down push it up and it will send power through the TPC to the Track for command operation only.

now a steam engine sits there silently now on remote you push the Eng button and look for say you only have one command engine as ID#22 you push button under it to select it then a screen in center of remote shows either the TMCC or Legacy Icons will use legacy for simplicity here at bottom left of that center screen you will see a circle with a vertical line at the top that is your engine start button once pushed the engine will do it's start up sounds next if you move big red knob clockwise the engine will start to move wa hoooooo it works!!

now the button next to start up looks like a stop sign yep you guessed it that turns the engine off. 

now if you choose the M button all you do is turn that big red knob and it will start the engine moving just as if you were moving the transformer handle.

now the advantage to the TPC it allows you to Run early  MTH Trains PS-1  Proto sound engines or the newer PS-2 the latter being command control the first is a conventional only engine with transformer controlled features. 

do a search for MTH PS-1 and some very good links should popup and give a good read as to how they work.

hope this helps you understand it a little more it is overwhelming at first but once you start using and getting a feel of it you will be hooked into a world only once imagined with we 1950 era folk saw in our imaginary worlds!

[lmxu]

CB&Q!! Wow, thank you SOOO much for taking your time to explain it all to me. All makes sense now! 

I truly appreciate everything you have told me,  what a great community here. 

You have me convinced to get a Legacy command system, it's really awesome.

Thanks and hope you have a happy new year!  

[CB&Q]

LMXU... Your welcome let us know how it works for you once you get it hooked up.

one last thing the command base will run both command engines or lionel williams or williams by bachman conventional engines and post war era engines.

the MTH engines will have to use the tpc method so you run wires from transformer to the input of a tpc then wires from output of tpc to the track.

there are also some good videos on the legacy system done by Mike Reagan he is Lionel's head of customer service  go to Lionel's web page

www.Lionel.com  

then go to where at top right says customer services click on it it has a drop down window there are a bunch of video tutorials in there enjoy!

and welcome to train nuts gone global LOL