The Mighty Pennsy

[Anonymous]

well we all know what happened to them and wonder why they merged with nyc
but i would like to set up an topic on what ifs about if the would have merged w/ another rr. what do you guys think?

[cnw1995]

Well, who might that have been? Maybe a tidewater coal road. I've read some good books on the circumstances of the merger - even though the 'culture' differences seemed to doom it to failure - it did seem to be the best option at the time...

[Anonymous]

Well i dont think it seemed to smart, they had practically the same lines so all they did was double the expenses pretty much, i was talkin over with pennsyfan about if they merged w/ the union pacific that would be an awesome railway, i think.

[Anonymous]

well I think it was stupid that the pennsy and nyc merged cause they were both running on the same lines basically. pennsy should of merged with union pacific, what do you think they would of been called?

[lionelsoni]

Union Pacific

[Bob Keller]

I recently saw a New York Central document where the railroad was considering what it called a merger with the B&O and possibly later, the C&O. Kind of ironic since today CSX owns the rights to the NYC name...

If that merger had come about, it probably wouldn't have been the debacle of the union with the Pennsy, but without deregulation, who knows...

On my railroad the Pennsy is a very small subsidiary of the New York Central. Oh, and the Central bought the ruins of the Milwaukee Road and runs from Boston to Seattle...

[pennsy_fan]

I have to agree w/ lionelsoni that the U.P. would probobly use their name on a merger w/ the mighty Pennsy. But a coast to coast railroad w/ the name PennPacific, with service from New York to L.A. Would no doubt be The Premier railroad in the U.S.
Thats the theme for my next layout. (now, if I could only get more space for my "dream road" in my house[:D])

[pennsy_fan]

In response to Ogaugeoverlord's statement :
Another Irony in reality is that the Norfolk Southern was owned by the Pennsy when it was the Norfolk & Western (note the tuscan red passenger cars and position light signals on the N&W's lines). Now the Norfolk Southern controls the "Pennsy" part of Conrail!!! Truth IS stranger than fiction...

[Anonymous]

I am not sure that the Pennsy would have merged with a west-of-Chicago line. In any case it probably would not have been a merger so much as the western line absorbing the Pennsy, because of the Pennsy's lesser mileage.

If the PRR merger had waited a few years, I would guess Milwaukee Road or SOO Line, because such a merger would not duplicate mileage, and would provide access to the Pacific (with the Milwaukee), and both CMSt.P&P and MSt.P&S.St.M would come to be in not-so-ideal financial condition. Also, PRR and Milwaukee were somewhat simialar in their mentalities. They both had electrics, they both ran hotshot passenger trains, and both had two competitors along their principal route (Northern Pacific and Great Northern for Milwaukee, NYC and B&O for Pennsylvania).

However, PRR, C&O, and B&O all had common ownership during the twentieth century under PRR president Alexander Cassatt, so Pennsy might have merged with C&O, since a merger with B&O would duplicate trackage and combine rivals, like Penn Central.

See you around the forums,
Daniel

[Kooljock1]

In one of Don Ball's fine books, he refers to a "real goob" in his neighborhood as a kid, who couldn't choose between modelling the Pennsylvania or the New York Central. Being of little imagination, he simply lettered his trains "Penn Central", and even had tickets and cards printed up.

But it was Don Ball's belief at the time that C&O/B&O/NYC and N&W/WAB/PRR were the mergers that should have been. Along with being an author, he also worked in the railroad industry, for NYC and others, and it was his belief that the corporate structures of those companies were more compatible.

Now, some 30+ years later and with 20/20 hindsight, it's easy to see that some 30 years of upheaval might have been avoided had Don Ball been listened to.

Jon [8D]

[Bob Keller]

I agree that B&O/C&O/NYC and N&W/WAB/PRR would have made more sense, but Conrail only turned things around because it had the power to be draconian in cutting lines, equipment, etc. Today's CSX and NS are where they are today because they were not in the poor fiscal shape of either the Pennsy or Central. Unless there were reforms of the system, the the weight of the Pennsy may well have drug N&W down, and the central may have done likewise to C&O and Co.

That's one reason why model railroading is so much fun...the only fiscal issue is getting the trains in the house, past the wife!

[pennsy_fan]

aint it the truth[(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D]

[cnw1995]

This is very interesting. In reading about railroading just prior to the Penn Central merger, I find it amazing how weak the roads were nationwide.

[pennsy_fan]

yes, thats true they were financially weakened by both a recession at the time and the government taxing the pants off them while subsidizing their competition....the airlines industry & the national interstate highway system with those tax dollars.Thats also why the class 1 railroads dropped passenger service, they were losing too much revenue to the competition. (hence: Amtrak)

[brianel027]

Okay, granted there are guys out there who love the Penny and/or The Central and wi***hey had never merged. And there was enough dislike between the rank and file of the 2 companies that made their merger an uphill fight. Remember, the Penn Centrail was also saddled with the New Haven too. I love the NH, but from a business standpoint, it was in bad shape and didn't help the Penn Central.

But the Penn Central did have the foresight to ask the government and regulatory agencies for changes in legislation and operating rules that would have helped the Penn Central immensely.

These requests were all denied until the federal government was saddled with ownership of the PC along with all the other troubled lines. Then regulations were approved quickly to assist the then struggling Conrail.

I always like to remind myself that the success of Conrail also came at a heavy cost. Guys that loved the railroad who had to work with old, neglected equipment and track that hadn't always been maintained, who brought their own supplies with them to work were laid off in the thousands. Sure, there was repetition of track and services. From a business standpoint, it probably made sense. From a human standpoint, there still was a heavy cost paid.

Sure is an interesting thought though, what if the PRR had merged with some other line. Same for the NYC. But to me, no more an interesting thought than wondering, what could have happened if the government had approved the operating rules and changes the Penn Central had requested and needed... changes later approved under the banner of Conrail.