80s Lionel GP9s GP7s cheap DC powered???

[Boyd]

I remember seeing at a hobby shop in Milwaukee a new (sometime in the 80s) Lionel engine, either GP9 or GP7 I'm not sure, but it was DC powered and had a little motor in the truck instead of the big motor in the cab that my Lionel DMIRR 8158 engine from 1981 has. I remember it was much cheaper than other AC powered GP engines that Lionel made. What road names did these DC GPs come in and what were their numbers? Are they reliable, can they pull much, any other comments on them? Boyd near St.Paul.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Welcome Boyd! Near St Paul eh? Did you ever visit the Mall of America when it was new?

I have a lot of experience with those can motored engines. I love them!!!! They are way more reliable than the pulmore motors. They were in a lot of different engines. RS-3's had them too. These were not exactly DC powered, they were universal, because the electronic E-units had rectifiers on them, making them perfectly compatable with all of the earlier trains Lionel made.

In the early 80's there were a few sets that were DC only. The James Gang was one, so was the Laser Train. These were the cheapest sets in the line, and this practice didn't last long, before Lionel went to the universal design.

K-line also uses those can motored trucks on some of their trains. They pull pretty well, especially if you use the modern cars that roll well. It may help to add a little weight to get more traction, and keep the wheels from slipping.

Except for the small steam engines, when the small can motors were used there were two per engine, one per truck.

[Boyd]

The GP7 or GP9 engine I saw ran on DC only. I don't think they made very many different road names or sold many at all. I did see the layout at the Mall of America. It must not have done well enough as its not there anymore, unless they moved it. I did have a James Gang train set. The engine didn't pull much of anything up a grade. I do have one of those chrome LASER engines. I took the RC reciever out of a worn out truck I had and wired a switch on the Laser engine to run it off of track power or off of batteries hooked up to the RC reciever from the RC truck. I was thinking I might be able to find 1 or 2 of these DC only geeps rather cheaply and wire them to my RC reciever and use them as helper engines to help pull cars up a steep grade. I'm working on a layout in my small bedroom thats 11x13. My main engine is a Lionel GP9 8158, DMIRR. I can't remember if I have any good steam engines to team up with the GP9, my trains have been in boxes for a long time. I actually live in Stillwater, but I put St.Paul on there cause its easier for people around the country to know where St.Paul is. Boyd

[cheapclassics]

Hi,

While I can't say I am an authority on DC only engines, I am intrigued by your reports of a DC only GP7/9. Is there a number or roadname on the shell? The largest DC engine I am aware of is the New Englander, which was a 2-6-4 steamer. I believe it was the 1980 catalog which showed a small ALCO diesel as DC only, but it was never made. All the other DC diesels were the small, one-truck units such as the gas turbine or the LASER. I hope this helps.

Keep on training,

Mike C. from Indiana

[brianel027]

While I won't claim to be an expert, electroncially speaking, on DC motor technology, I am one who operates with them and with DC current. And it is possible Boyd that someone else out your way has done some modifications like I have... read on.

As mentioned by Elliot above, Lionel has been using DC can motors for quite some time. In most cases they have a circuit board reverse unit with a bridge rectifier that allows the motor to run with AC current. Most larger diesels have 2 motors mounted in each truck. Cheaper engines like switchers have one motor. Lionel has also gone back to the practice of using a single motor in many of it's new lower end engines - even larger ones like Geeps, Alcos and RS-3's. Steam engines also have one motor.

To also note, early K-Line diesels used 2 truck mounted DC motors. Williams and MTH use DC can motors, but they are larger vertically mounted DC motors that go through the frame of the loco and have flywheels for smoother operation. K-Line and Lionel also use this type on their better more expensive locos.

The problem with a single motor in either a plastic steam engine (of any type, incl. the James Gang train) or a diesel engine, is the lack of weight. I have some cheaper Lionel locos including the Industrial Switcher type and Dockside steamers as well as small 2-4-0 steamers that I add SUBSTANTIAL weight to. By adding the extra weight and adhering the traction tire (so it won't slip) using 3M Carpet Tape, even my Industrial Switchers will pull 6-12 cars with ease. Even my nephew's red plastic Rock Island #8700 Docksider is now an impressive puller and good runner. He laughed with joy the first time he ran it and it pulled a 12 car train (which it did not do at first).

I have noticed over the years some unever operating characteristics with the early K-Line diesels. Somewhere alsong the way by accident, I tried setting one of the diesels up with no circuit board and running it on DC current. Low and behold, I noticed a great improvement in the gear/growl noise level as well as much smoother operation and more consistant running speeds... call it "Poor Man's Speed Control."

I will note I can also alternate to AC current for other locos such as my older Lionel ones with solenoid-type e-units and AC motors. Though I will also note, these can be run on DC current too, though the e-units tend to respond slower to the DC current. The loco will lurch in the wrong direction, unless you put the current to the track real low and slowly increase it, just enough to let the e-unit respond.

I now have over a third of my locos set up with no circuit boards to run on straight DC current. They all run better than before, though I want to be careful here... though the speed is more consistant, I wouldn't say it would be as good as running a loco with the electronic speed control, especially on grades. But on my tight 027 curves, there is absolutely a marked improvement in speed consistancy. Plus in the smaller locos like the Docksiders, small steamers and switchers, by removing the circuit board e-unit, it frees up a lot of space that I can now get extra weight into.

The only real drawback for me using the DC current is that I find I have to clean locomotive wheels and the track more frequently. Other drawbacks (that don't bother me) to DC current are: you can't use locos with engine mounted whistles or horns because they blow constantly (I don't - I use off board sounds), you have no neutral position on your locos, you won't be able to use TMCC (I don't*) and some operating cars (like vibrator motor searchlight cars) don't work as well due to the lower current going to the track.

Well Boyd, and everyone else - it ain't a perfect world out there! I'm sure some could argue with me on the pros and cons of using DC current. But I'm working within my limitations. If I had more money, maybe I'd run better locos with TMCC or DCS. But I don't. And my locos are of the low end variety that I have lovingly made many inprovements too, so that they not only look better but run better too.

*PS, my version of TMCC is a wooden stick with a hook on one end and a rubber protector on the other. Primitive as it is, I find on my small layout it does what it needs to do and didn't cost me a fortune either.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Boyd, if you live in Stillwater, then you aren't more than 10 miles from me. The display at the mall was mine. The engines that we used were slightly modified, because we did use straight DC. We removed a lot of e-units, but I don't recall selling any of the modified engines. Actually what you are trying to do should be very simple. Why don't you email me, and if you would like to come over I can show you how to do it.

[Boyd]

I didn't buy that DC GP7/9 that I saw at the hobby shop. I think it was blue in color, but I don't remember what road name it was. I do remember the wholesale companies selling them at about 2/3 of what they were selling AC GP7/9s. Boyd.