Lionel Greed-dale Train

[Anonymous]

I originally had a similar post as a reply to a discussion on Lionel's new catalog. I'm here to vent about corporate greed & aging rock star's investing practices.

I recently got back in to this hobby last year by purchasing an inexpensive Lionel starter set, the Pennsylvania Flyer. I wanted something to run around the Christmas tree for my son (actually, I wanted a train period) to have the fond memories that I have as a child at Christmas. I paid $125 for it via mail order. The set was brand new but the engine ran with smoke coming out the bottom of it. After going from Lionel dealer to Lionel dealer, I finally found one that would repair the train under warranty. After 3 months, I got the train back & it is working fine. However, I found out the hard way that if you want a better product then you either purchase a more expensive Lionel engine & skip their starter sets or go with an MTH starter set that has Protosound 2.0.

My point is this - all I hear is Lionel this and Lionel that, Lionel is the premier model train company. Yet I don't see the quality in their basic product that I do in the other companies.

More so, who are they trying to reach as a market? Yeah, they have Disney products and Thomas the Tank Engine. They have the Polar Express. But they also have a Neil Young train? And the set goes for $600 just because it is a limited run set? I'm a Neil Young fan, but I'll stick to his albums.

Doesn't anyone think it is ironic that the Neil Young "Greendale Train" has in its description that Greendale is a "sanctuary from corporate greed."? Look at the price of this set & other products in the hobby by Lionel & tell me that Mr. Young doesn't have his ideals messed up.

I'm here to have fun, not buy in to hypocritcal political statements while draining my pocket book. About the only thing this train might be good for is another place for aging hippies to sta***heir weed.

Lionel needs to shape up in more ways than one to win my loyalty. They're not going to do it through politicizing toy trains & greedy pricing.

[bluelinec4]

I couldn't agree more with your analogy. It seems pretty stupid that a statement against corporate greed is headed up by an expensive corporate set. Does Neil Young take the profits from this set to fight corporate greed or fuel his own.

Ben

[Anonymous]

That set is in the same category as K-Line's Iraqi Freedom series. I don't want no stinking political statements with my trains.

[prewardude]

Amen, dontrainman.

[Big_Boy_4005]

The best thing you can do is vote with your dollars. Personally I quit buying all of the "silly" stuff many years ago. If it isn't realistic, I ain't buyin it. And if it costs more than $250, I ain't buyin it either.

The name Lionel means nothing anymore, there are too many other good trains to buy these days.

[3railguy]

I think there are probably just as many rah rah MTH guys today as there are rah rah Lionel guys. Same goes for K-Line, etc. At one time there was really only Lionel with Williams and K-Line on the side line. Today we have train wars.......LOL..which add even more excitement to the hobby.

As far as the Neil Young train is concerned, it's best to wait and see what happens. It could hit the blowout list for all we know. Massed produced celebrity products don't have any real value. Only their pesonal possesions.

[jonadel]

mastfalk,

I believe that the only way to enter this hobby (or any other expensive hobby) is to do some serious leg work and find a reputable hobby shop that cares about you as a customer. It doesn't matter which product you prefer, you will have some warranty issues, it's not a matter of "if" it's a matter of "when" and that's where your local dealer will be able to advise you. Sure, I've made mail order purchases from dealers on the east coast but that was also done after I had been in the hobby for several years, my first choice is to go to my local dealer if he's close on price.

I do have my preferences for train product, I only buy one type of engine but I do buy all kinds of rolling stock and accessories.

Greed??? Yup, sadly it's the driving force for too many companies.

Jon

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dontrainman

That set is in the same category as K-Line's Iraqi Freedom series. I don't want no stinking political statements with my trains.

I don't disagree with what anyone has said here. I'm out for realism & quality at a great price. I may lean toward MTH, but that is only because I've seen the quality in their Rail King line & they have the road names I'm looking for (Pittsburgh & Pennsylvania based RRs).

I thought the Iraqi Freedom train was a bit cheesy when I saw it. I'd never buy it, but then again Military sets have been around in the hobby for 50 years or more. One good thing that came out of it though is that K-Line sent a set and several boxes of supplies to our troops in Iraq. Now that unit has a model railroad club going and they're promoting the hobby. I can also see a kid playing military with it & it doesn't cost $600. Now that's promoting the hobby. Who is Mr. Young going to send his set to? I doubt anyone. I also can't see anyone playing with this set except die-hard idiologues who listen to Neil Young.

Enough said on my part.

[nblum]

This is America, land of the free. If manufacturers are OK with making sets glorifying instruments of death in military sets (I own a few of those myself), why not a set glorifying peace? This set is clearly for collectors who have a special affinity for Lionel, Neil Young's music and political views. There isn't anything wrong with that as far as I can see. It's not for me (I'm not a collector). Indeed, to me the Greendale set is less problematic than K-Line making light hearted, jingoism laden cars referring to the Iraqi war when young Americans at the same moment in time are giving their lives for their country. Everyone's mileage varies.

[Anonymous]

When you throw the autograph in, the set is worth every penny. I'm going to order it from Charles Ro tomorrow.

[brianel027]

mastfalk, first off sorry to hear you had the problem with your Pennsy Flyer steam engine. Although I have been openly criticial of some of Lionel's pricing and quality (as related to price), the steam engine you got with your Pennsy Flyer set has been very reliable for me and I've got a couple that are each more than 10 years old and both still run just fine. Even though it is a single motored unit with the same motor that is also in the single motored diesels, the die-cast shell of the Columbia 4-4-2 steamer gives it some additional weight.

The "Greed-dale" set (I like your joke name) is in the catalog with the obvious connection to Neil Young as a minority owner of Lionel. On a business level, I don't believe the "Greendale" album has done all that well. It is a recording for die-hard Neil Young followers, and not for the audience that will buy albums like "Harvest Moon," "Rust Never Sleeps" or "Comes A Time." Nevermind that the whole music business has seen a downward trend in sales. Or that when you've been downsized or laid-off, CD's by Neil Young or anyone else for that matter go to the very bottom of the purchase list.

As an artist and musician, Neil has always been one of my big influences. I consider the guy a long lost brother of the artistic spirit. But I'm not a blind fan, and when I disagree with Neil, I will say so. I don't consider this train set to be something that is for the typical admirerer of Neil Young. This is for the train collectors who are looking for something that will potentially increase in value. The Neil Young name along with the limited run and the high list price should help to this end. BUT as we have all seen in recent years, it is no guarantee.

Yes it is ironic that the line "sanctuary from corporate greed" is used to describe a train set that is priced out of reach for most average train buyers. Just as it is ironic that most goods being made in China (and that is a lot these days) are all dropping in price: I've seen Chinese made personal CD players for under $10.00 and DVD players for under $40 - YET the prices of our trains also made in China, just continue to go up and up!! Just as ironic that Neil Young is also rumored to be a participant in the upcoming "Dump Bush" concerts to take place in October.

God bless America. Gee, I wonder if the various campaign buttons and posters - in part an offshoot of our American democracy - are also being made in China? Having listened to the "Greendale" album, I guess the line "sanctuary from corporate greed" could also mean that the jobs that were once in Greendale have also since relocated to China.

PS: for the record, I am not an isolationist. The guy in China needs a job just as much as the guy in Ohio. The big difference is that FREE trade needs to also be FAIR trade. There is no way American workers can compete with the wages being paid overseas... if our standard of living is higher than most other places, the cost of living is also higher here too. We've all seen one too many reports of executives of bankrupt companies getting golden parachutes, while workers have a hard time getting their last paycheck.

Sooner or later Lionel is going to feel the aftershocks (along with everyone else) of this mass exodus of American blue and white collar jobs to China and India. If folks can't afford to pay their rent and utilities, it is doubtful they'll be buying Lionel trains regardless of what their list price is. The aging corporate hippies should put that bit of truth in their pipe and smoke it.

[cheapclassics]

One positive note about the set. They are using the postwar Alco diesel shell for the engine. This engine was used for a long time during the MPC era for low-to-mid range trains, but has fallen out of the catalog listings in recent years. At least they still have the tooling for it.

Keep on training,

Mike C. from Indiana

[Anonymous]

A positive note with restrictions - the FA has a solid front pilot with plastic EMD blomberg type side frames. Not very impressive for the price.

As a side note I'm a little cynical towards the authenticity of the signature on the certificate. I think the reality is that it will more likely be an authentic replica.

[Anonymous]

Releasing the 2004 volume II catalogue with this set in it so close to the upcoming national election for President of the United States is in very poor taste, based of its left leanings. For the record, I am a registered Republican and found the K-line Iraq line of trains in poor taste too. [xx(]KEEP YOUR STINKING POLITICS OUT OF OUR HOBBY!

[Anonymous]

The politics I could ignore, the price I cannot. [:(]

How do they come up with this stuff?

[brianel027]

I have a theory as to how this set came about. Neil's "Greendale" album has gotten very little airplay as far as I know. The only time I heard anything off the album on the radio, was an DJ edit version of "Be The Rain" and that was on a college radio station. ClearChannel is the biggest owner of radio stations around the country and it seems to me they don't play much new music outside of artists who are bankable to have bonafide hits.

I did read a rant that Neil made against ClearChannel somewhere on the internet news. And in sympathy, the corporate mentality of the media today makes it difficult if not impossible for many artists to get any airplay. Brian Wilson, formerly of the Beach Boys, is still writing and making great music, yet you don't hear any of his new stuff of the radio either. And Brian Wilson is hardly a controversial musician as far as his actual music goes. It's still as melodic and rich with harmonies as it ever was.

But the same profit driven mentality that is in the corporate entertainment business, is also ironically here with us in the corporate train business too. One had better believe that Wellspring is just as concerned (if not more) with how Lionel looks on the year end profit reports than anything else.

So with the Neil Young connection with Lionel, I'm sure someone had the idea for an "obvious" collectible as well as a way to generate some profits for Lionel as well as publicity for the "Greendale" album.

The thing that always strikes me as upside down in this thinking is that it is "the market" that determines collectibles, not "the manufacturer." Yet it is so common today to see items marked with "limited edition," "collectible edition," "only 10,000 made," "certificate of authenticity included." It's all just another gimmick to try and sell something.

Consider the recent releases in the past few years from Lionel related to Neil Young. The very first uncataloged Vapor Records box car was going to be this hot, hot collectible. Prices at one time exceeded $200 for this car. But that wasn't the market talking... that was retailers who were hoping to cash in on something they hoped everyone would want and would pay for. They were wrong, and prices have come down on that first Vapor Records box car. As they have on nearly all the Vapor related items, as well as the HORDE tour box car.

It strikes me as such a better idea to simply make the trains, make them in quantity and available to folks at reasonable prices and the market will ultimately determine the collectible value. Granted, they may not be high priced items, but some of the more sought after trains are the ones that come with low end starter sets that are available only in that starter set. The 9-inch C&O gondola comes to mind, from the low-end Norfolk & Western set from around 5-6 years ago. It wasn't a great set... the engine ran forward only, yet I've seen that gondola sell for around $25.

If Lionel really wanted to promote a set along with Neil's album at the same time, they'd make an interesting set, make it available and make it affordable. They'd alter some of the cars in the set, so that some sets come with a different car to generate some excitement and some sales. The problem here, is that Lionel wouldn't make the money, the secondary market would.

If age old tooling is going to be used, then price the set accordingly. Lionel has made some decent sets in recent years that are reasonably priced from discounters and that I believe do help the hobby.

I don't believe the "Greendale" set will fall into this category. Nor do I believe it will be anymore collectible than the previously released Vapor Records stuff, the HORDE car or the Broken Arrow Stock Car (named after Neil's ranch and one of his publishing companies).

Lionel needs to stop worrying about trying to make collectible trains and start concerning itself with making affordable trains at at reasonable quality level. Any company can make an attempt to help make something collectible, but it is ultimately the FREE MARKET that makes the final decision, not the board room or the CEO.

Based on all the negative feedback this set has gathered here and on the OGR forum, this set appears to be "Landing On Water" which was another Neil album I really liked (and still do), but also ultimately bombed with critics and the record buying public.

[3railguy]

The Greendale set has been called everything from junk to crap on the OGR forum. The kind of language that gets Rich's delete button hot. Yet the posts haven't been deleted. Rich must hate the set too.

[prewardude]

That Elvis set ain't no box of chocolates, either.