Reading the thread on "how did you get into O scale" brought up a lot of interesting comments that I enjoyed reading.I was surprised at how many comments cited a Marx set as an entry into a life long hobby, as I did. Perhaps I should not be surprised.
Is there a need for a really basic electrically operated O scale train set, more basic that what is currently offered to draw more parents to introduce toy trains to their kids? The Marx sets had no whistle, no bell, sometimes not even a headlight..sometimes no reverse. Yet speaking personally at the age of three, these missing goodies were not missed. . I was looking at the cost of entry level sets by the major players, and these seem to be out of the reach of many, especially now. Scout Sets come to mind.
What began me revisiting this question was the vanishing of the local hobby store and it struck me that when I remembered when my own kids were young, no major retailer carried toy train sets except for the push or battery variety. I wonder too why MTH or Lionel don't use a mass merchandiser rather than the internet.? Looking at something in your hand seems to beat looking at a picture.
Will both of these aspects of beginners sets be the downfall of the hobby? I hope not.
Why is this the way it is?
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
wallyworld [...] Is there a need for a really basic electrically operated O scale train set, more basic that what is currently offered to draw more parents to introduce toy trains to their kids? The Marx sets had no whistle, no bell, sometimes not even a headlight..sometimes no reverse. Yet speaking personally at the age of three, these missing goodies were not missed. [...]
Is there a need for a really basic electrically operated O scale train set, more basic that what is currently offered to draw more parents to introduce toy trains to their kids? The Marx sets had no whistle, no bell, sometimes not even a headlight..sometimes no reverse. Yet speaking personally at the age of three, these missing goodies were not missed. [...]
Maybe it's different for different people. I was three when I got my Lionel 2026 freight set. It has a whistle, headlight and 3-position reverse (no operating bell, though). All the same, I had no trouble operating it throughout my childhood, and I enjoyed all those features.
Though it is hard to articulate, I think the "feel" of a quality product would do more to win over potential gift-givers than sunbursts all over a box talking up electronic features.
The feel of a quality, well-built locomotive and rolling stock made of better quality plastic are better choices than cheap cheap cheap. Combine the quality in production and then ad reliable electronics and it is a potential home run.
Bob Keller
Ogaugeoverlord Though it is hard to articulate, I think the "feel" of a quality product would do more to win over potential gift-givers than sunbursts all over a box talking up electronic features. The feel of a quality, well-built locomotive and rolling stock made of better quality plastic are better choices than cheap cheap cheap. Combine the quality in production and then ad reliable electronics and it is a potential home run.
Affordability is also an issue as parents not children dole out the cash and as an adult, I agree with the "feel" of a well made product but again from an adult's point of view.
My childhood tinplate Marx was well made and I have many examples that still run and reliable electronics undoubtedly adds cost.
I had in mind what the comments came up with in terms of their introduction to O scale as very young kids with a built in simplicity to them. Based on the comments, the first train led to upgrading, new purchases with the features you mentioned as time went on. I think the answer is that inexpensive = shoddy is not a forgone conclusion to me. Of course, I could be just as well be wrong as I am mistaking nostalgia for critical thinking, but it seems like children have not changed that much..but perhaps what adults expectations of what their children will enjoy ..has changed..as much as say, the assumptions of the makers of these toys has. The definition of play might have changed, but from my own experiences kids still use their imaginations.
I have had expensive equipment well made with electronics and all that was not noticed as much by the kids as their ability to fill the gondolas with play animals.My son had more interest in putting a expensive LGB loco in the path of an "expensive " G scale figure just to see what happened. How children versus adults view toys may be two different perspectives.
Well, last Christmas I saw posts on one of the discussion groups about inexpensive (cheap) plastic train sets at Walgreens and others. I think they were $20 discounted to $10, so I got one. Crummy plastic track that wouldn't stay together, however it is O gauge and runs on my O layout. Regardless, engine was a green steam loco of British design, battery powered, forward and reverse switch on engine and continuous loud choo choo sounds. Runs better on floor without track. My great grandson (4 yrs.) has often pulled it out of his toy box this summer to play with. He is looking forward to running it and my real (Lionel) train this Christmas. Even if I didn't have old Lionel, the cheap one was a very good starting train (more fun without track) and based upon his response I would upgrade to something better. Net, there are cheap entry level trains, just different from what we had.
My Dad started me out on wind ups at about 3 or 4 years old and the primary issues were......I couldn't wind up the engine myself, and his thumb could not withstand the blisters.
Dad skipped over the battery operated trains around 1955 and went right to a Postwar Alco with passenger cars when I was 4 and a year later to a 2046 Hudson with tender and freight cars. In the interim, he invested in a rerailer and then he spent his time teaching me to operate the trains in their simplicity. That included care, handling, and safety, not easy with a 4 year old. A zap or two and I learned quickly.
What worked is that he refused to put the stuff back on the rails for me. I also learned quickly that when I had to get things going on my own, speed and derailments were absolutely no fun. Neither I nor the dog electrocuted ourselves, and there were no house fires or fatal shorts. The sturdy die cast construction held up, even with a 4 year old.......I still have the trains today, and they look/run beautifully.
I did purchase my son (9 years old at the time) a Lionel starter set that was mostly plastic. But it has held up nicely, even though he never got the train bug.
My granddaughter now operates that one. As one or two of you have observed, the beauty is in the simplicity and the imagination, not in the bells, whistles, and complexity. My granddaughter spends as much time loading and unloading her small toys as she does running the trains, which drives me nuts. But that is what she likes to do, with a whole lot of imagination and pretend thrown in for good measure. For example, Jesus, Mary, Joseph, the wise men, and the stable animals, plus the tiny Disney princesses, have accumulated quite a few frequent rail passenger miles. And yes, I do let her operate my treasured childhood trains, under close supervision, because the Postwar engines can haul more of her toys.
So for children, I personally believe in simplicity and ease of operation at a reasonable but low cost for a starter set, not a master long-term expansion plan, then see how that goes. My children and now my grandchildren could care less about detail. Scale? The granddaughter could not care a lick. If the engine and cars are cheaply made and are broken, they will quickly join the child's boxes of long forgotten toys. And the interest dies with it.
Much to no ones' surprise, a child CAN be taught to take care of things and to take care of safety at a very early age. Supervision and learning is quality time spent with the kiddies, time that has staying power in their memories. But I sure have been tempted to "invest" in a Polar Express set for my granddaughter.
Jack.
IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.
Jack
I couldn't agree with you more. To my experience, what a child is content with and what an adult is are two different creatures. My daughter still remembers plucking the cows from my carefully arranged farm scene and stuffing them into boxcars "for a ride' around the layout. Scale to them means nothing..too abstract. As long as it is colorful, runs, and can carry loads or be a background to other play activities, they are occupied. . I remember the old Marx play sets that fit well into the toy train aspect..From what I read in this forum a lot of this interest began at a preschool or elementary school age..I agree, these beginner sets could be made simpler yet reliable,,cars you can put loads on like toy trucks, maybe building blocks or animals...At that preschool or elementary school age who is going to drop 300-500 on a single toy? Maybe some do but common sense tells me there would be more sales at a lower cost sans electronics, reversing units, etc. I think this hobby is on the way to becoming where it was in the 70's , a much niche confined to those with a great deal of disposable income in comparison to economic trends. I think in many ways Lionel and MTH have handed to sword by the handle to this phenomenon of becoming more of a niche hobby than it already is. My first car wasn't a fully loaded Jaguar ( although I would not have complained ) LOL...A larger size would help as scale is not a consideration without going beyond O scale track. One of these days Ill take a picture of the Unique Art steamer I have..it dwarfs the Marx stuff, yet "looks right.."
Bruce
I had a windup train before I got my first Lionel scout in 1950 when I was 9. The windup train was a bit of a bore. Only a circle of track. The scout wasn't much better until I acquired some more track and a few manual switches. I sold most of it when I was about 14 for $35. I had lost interest as there was no place in our home to set up a layout, and I didn't have much money or a clear focus. I bought a car when I was 15 and my focus changed to cars. My first car was a '48 Ford coupe with an early hemi. A year later, I put the hemi in a 39 Ford coupe and sold the car a year later to raise cash to go to engineering school. About 1965 the bug bit again for a short while, and I acquired some more stuff and played with it on the floor for a while. Off and on over the next many years I would set up a layout on the floor and play with until I got bored with it again. Right now I don't have space for a layout so everything is in a boxes.
I believe Target carries starter sets around Christmas. I acquired a few plastic scout engines 35 years ago, and recently, I have put together starter set with these engines for young boys. I know from the feedback from the mothers that they got played with.
There's definately a need for low cost starter sets. Without them, most of us wouldn't be in the hobby today.
Bells? Whistles? I heard them in my head! Switching? What's that? What's a siding? What's a Johnson bar, a reverse gear or a sanding line? It's a train daddy! It's not any of those things!
Imagination is everything.
Bring back the scouts, the triple niners and the plug door boxcar!
Becky
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
I never had bells and whistles, still don't. I'm too busy watching and listening to the train cruising the layout to worry about bells and whistles. People don't miss what they don't know about.
Like the above post about teaching the grandkids safety and proper operation of trains, I'm doing the same thing.
Plastic O Gauge trains are not meant to be cheap or disposable.
Thermoplastic bodies are meant to last for a while.
ABS Plastic Bodies are built to last for Hundreds of Years.
The ATLAS O Insustrial Rail train sets are as basic as they can get and still be a good value for beginners.
Are you talking about bringing back "rusting and disposable" steel trains that are so cheap that anybody can get them?
Andrew
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
Child safety laws would probably preclude the use of traditional metal and tinplate construction, outside of diecast, which is out of the question I would think due to cost. Trains for young children were cheap and disposable as they were perhaps at the time, never considered as collectable to be made in a heirloom quality lasting generations. Those considerations came later , with rarity, quality, etc arising from collectors, as those who collect "low end" examples like Marx , Hafner, Joy Line, etc.As someone with four children I can attest that toys take a beating from children at a young age.Outside of the materials, I think simpler engineering might help. Two wheel cars with molded on detail that the trucks are molded on as far the body is concerned. That saves the several parts it takes to make a truck. Another is a fixed knuckle, rather than an operating knuckle which takes several parts.. Another is a two wheel loco with side molded trucks like the cars. Another is eliminating reverse mechanisms. There are others as well but "realism" in terms of scale being a moot point, the use of bright primary colors, cars that can be easily loaded, perhaps with loads would attract buyers. A couple of figures would not hurt. I think a good industrial engineer could make this reliable as it's simpler. Pre and Postwar locos attest to this, even Marx, etc. I personally think no one has tried this in O scale recently as the powers assume that be perhaps rightfully that toys are exclusively for adults, lol. Thats a shame.
I think perhaps the powers that be see the hobby as peaked and market to a small niche of older hobbyists that has a short term high profit margin based on a wage earner's disposable income in mind in terms of demographics rather than a long term strategy.. I think they are designing for adults as the preschool and elementary school kids are a "lost cause" despite Thomas and friends, etc.being wildly popular. Go figure.Making things more expensive as a growth opportunity seems to be short sighted. The same effort in this economy which will probably go on in this state for some time, to make a less costly product that is reliable, marketed to kids for future sales seems to make sense.Personally, I think the makers have backed themselves into a corner and are in a rut.
You know I wonder as a side issue as China's market economy and consumerism grows and wages being bound to increase, would this mean that this has impacted the cost of our imported toys now and in the future? I wonder where the tipping point is, or have we reached it? As far as inexpensive.
Wooden trains are a simple starting option, provided they are sanded and coated with safe materials.
It would be a great thing to have sturdy. Vacume-Formed models of the most modern locomotives and freight cars available in inexpensive starter sets.
Starter sets could be made from vacume-forming that is just a step below injection molding.
There would be a two sided cavity mold for both the body and underframe of the locomotives and rolling stock. The two vacume-forming mold cavity sides are brought together. The warmed-up sheet of plastic is drooped in the mold. Negative Pressure is started in the mold cavity. Postive pressure is applied on the top of the mold to push the plastic in the details. When everything is set the plastic is cooled, then the plastic part is removed.
It should be less expensive to make the modern, relateable models as close to the quallity of injection molding as possible.
We need modern, relatable models that are inexpensive, always available to sell in hobby shops and major retailers.
Andrew Falconer
Andrew Falconer Starter sets could be made from vacume-forming that is just a step below injection molding. There would be a two sided cavity mold for both the body and underframe of the locomotives and rolling stock. The two vacume-forming mold cavity sides are brought together. The warmed-up sheet of plastic is drooped in the mold. Negative Pressure is started in the mold cavity. Postive pressure is applied on the top of the mold to push the plastic in the details. When everything is set the plastic is cooled, then the plastic part is removed. It should be less expensive to make the modern, relateable models as close to the quallity of injection molding as possible. We need modern, relatable models that are inexpensive, always available to sell in hobby shops and major retailers. Andrew Falconer
The "Ifs" of If I were not retired on a fixed income and could turn back the clock biologically speaking, I would as a younger entrepreneur, target exclusively the elementary school market , stressing simplicity, reasonable realism, and play value in O scale electrically powered toy trains. Work out seals with Target, Walmart et al with colorful packaging and rolling stock. Call it minimalism. I suspect they would become collectable over time but that is beside the point. Prompted by the threads on affordability, and garden railroads etc, I finally had the wherewithal and energy to transplant the inexpensive RC Lionel G gauge PRR Flyer out into the garden as an inner loop to the LGB outer loop. I had as much fun with this as I do with the more expensive LGB stuff. If get the energy to do it , Ill take a video and post it...affordable is possible, and fun. I think your ideas are pragmatic and would work. It would be interesting to hear what other idea are out there,
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