NOT IMPRESSED with Lionel's new catalogue

[Anonymous]

It's not a hatred on my part, but yet a thing that I hold dear to me and feel somthing thats been special to me is now just another bottom line buisness,,,,Really what I'd like to see Lionel do is take bigger strides in developing the low end stuff,Not a thing wrong with there scale stuff {I just don't have enough money} but I'd like to see them put dual DC motors in there 027 U36B and go back to the Pullmore motors in there 027 Diecast steamers,Sure you might pay a little more but we could run the daylights out of them and be able to fix them when they wear out!!!

[brianel027]

romiller, first off welcome to the Forum here. If you have been reading this Forum for any amount of time, it should be obvious that although many of us here have strong opinions, we also love Lionel trains. But it is very important to bear in mind, the name Lionel refers to two things:
First off it is the official copyrighted legal name of a company that used to manufacture toy trains right here in the US, but now has them manufactured for them in China.
Secondly and more importantly to us, it is a name that refers to SO MUCH more than the current company. It is the name that stands for and symbolizes all 3-rail trains. Go ahead and ask the guy on the street... he may have no idea what K-Line, Williams or MTH is, but he knows what Lionel is. The very sad thing on that last thought is that man on the street may have no idea Lionel trains are still being made.

Historically, Lionel trains have always been more expensive than other brands. During the 1950's, MARX trains were commonly called "the working man's Lionel." Unfortunately, Lionel trains today are still expensive, and usually more so than the competition today.

It helps to bear in mind there are factors most of us are not aware of.
1) We don't know the yearly/quarterly return levels that Wellspring (Lionel's parent company) expects from their substantial investment in Lionel.
2) We don't know all the investment costs from much of the totally brand new product that is being introduced... new product that will not make an immediate return on the tooling and die costs.
3) We don't know the inside financial restrictions, requirements and actual operating costs of the company.
4) We don't know what effect the recent $40M lawsuit loss (and the related appeal costs) to MTH will ultimately have on the hobby as well as Lionel.

BUT....
1) We do know that Lionel's manufacturing and production cost are now lower than they have been in decades... the reported average Chinese wage of 50-65¢ per hour is a far cry from the UAW wages being paid to the US workers at the Lionel plant.
2) We do know that a good portion of current Lionel product is made from dies and tooling developed by the original Lionel Corp. or Lionel MPC. Outside of refurbishing costs, we can assume this tooling has long been paid for and has long made profits for the company.
3) We do know that Lionel's MSRP have consistantly gone up... the low end starter set cars were cataloged in 1995 with a $16.95 MSRP. In 2000 they were $24.95 MSRP. Nearly a 50% jump within 4 years. How many working families with children (whom these cars are supposedly made for) have seen a 50% increase in their wages in 3 years? Chances are instead they've lost one job, and taken another at 50% less than what they did make.
4) We all know that there are other companies making other quality trains (sometimes better quality) overseas in China, just as Lionel is, only for much less cost to the consumer. Compare the cost of a basic Williams GP-9 loco to a Lionel one... the Williams engine is better made with more diecast metal construction for less money.
5) We all know that although Lionel is the more recognized name, MTH Electric Trains has done far more in the past decade to raise the bar and advance the hobby (outside of Lionel's creation of Railsounds and TrainMaster Command Control). Lionel has spent much of the past few years playing "catch up" rather than being the leader.
6) We all know that K-Line, MTH/Railking, Williams, Industrial Rail and Atlas 0 (and others) have all given the current Lionel company a very, very good run for the money. It is inevitable that we train consumers are going to make comparisions between the above companies products and Lionel's products - not just in quality and innovation, but in PRICE as well as SERVICE. Even customers who swore they'd never buy trains other than Lionel are now doing so in larger numbers.
7) We also all know that the U.S. economy is still taking a beating, despite the optimism of the introduction of the first Lionel 2004 catalog. National job growth last month was 32,000, far below the 150,000 anticipated by the Bush administration. Retail sales are down nationwide (attributed to rising gasoline prices) except for the high end luxury retailers. Crude oil prices have just hit record high levels this week... which will also raise the cost of home heating oil as well as gasoline. Bear in mind the northeast US has always been the strongest market for model trains (outside of Texas and California) and will feel the full brunt of these rising costs in the winter months - also the traditional time for buying trains.
8) We all know that Lionel has been making an effort to try and reach new customers. By Lionel's own statements, they claim starter set sales and related items have been increasing. But how much longer can or will this continue?
9) We also well know that many many train purchases are being made from mailorder venues after drastic price reductions have been advertised. It isn't uncommon to see blowouts of trains in the range of 40-60% off MSRP. Of course, this is true for other brands of trains too.

I will never say that Joshua Lionel Cohen was a saint. But it is obvious that the original Lionel company not only cared about profits, but they cared about customers. And many of those customers were youngsters who today make up a bulk of today's Lionel customers. Of course those were different times and times have changed. Yet the basic principles of being in business and making quality, competitively priced merchandise remain the same.

BUT it does seem to many of us here that the new Lionel company is far, far more concerned with profits, after-market collectable values and cost cutting than with actually seeing the hobby expand with the very age group that once made Lionel the name that it is today: KIDS!!!

Yes romiller, many of us love the Lionel name, the magic and the memories we have of the fun we had with those seemingly magical trains. That doesn't mandate that we love the current Lionel company, what they make, or how ridiculously high it is priced.

The fact there are now so many other companies making Lionel types of trains and related electronics, accessories, etc. speaks plainly of this. The fact we are all buying them also speaks of this. Lionel hasn't lost our love or affection... just our consumer dollars.

In a statement recently in OGRR magazine, Lionel's CEO said he thought the hobby could not sustain the current number of companies making 3-rail trains. I'm certain he's hoping one of the other company's will go under. The sad reality is that it could just as easily be Lionel as well as anyone else.

[Anonymous]

I think that most collectors have forgotten how to appreciate toy trains Lionel should concentrate on mass marketing a full line of train sets and seperate sale items,
Qualityv value and volume should be the hallmarks. Plastic trucks need to be abandoned, Advertising should emphasize play value and toy train operation as a hobby , NOT speculator value The collectors want tiny production runs that could be best accomplished by a seperate collector division Lionel will have to crack the hundred dollar barrier with a small set that has a circle of Fast track, a 40w transformer, a beefed up version of that cheapie Army switcher type remake they made some years ago. one freight car and a caboose. Next step up would be the RS-3 and U-36-B. then the FT, GP9and GP38 then the operator's lineup kicks in from there. In stean, the little scout style engine wiuld be the botton of the line, followed by the Docksider and then the little Hudson. The small Berkshire would cap off the toy steamer line Na inexpensive line of accessoies would also be offered The toy market and the operators are Lionel's real bread and butter. Let the collectors deal with the aftermarket , that is where the real collectible rarities are born anyway. Limited run stuff could be handled by a small division dedicated to marketing Lionel products intended for collectors. Standard "O" stuff could be sold in hobby shops as operator by a marketing staff dedicated to the operator. Collector/speculators who gripe about repeat catalog appearances should stop being the tail wagging the dog. Most collector prices have fallen sharply in the last ten years anyway. Same for hobby shop owners who decry big box marketing of trains. A full line of toy trains MASS MARKETED wil HELP the hobby shop by providing a gateway to the operating hobby. Collector products will also be at the hobby shops. The future would best be served by reviving the "Traditional" and "Collector" lines made in the 1980's and adding an "Operator's" line to the mix. WAL*MART, QVC and other big retailers would carry the "Traditional" stuff, everything else would be found in hobby shops. If something breaks, the Service Station should be quickly and fairly reimbursed by Lionel for warranty repairs., Meanwhile the toy customer will be exposed to the rest of the Lionel line at the service station. This would be an opportuity to sell "Operator line" products to the toy consumer. Remember, for example. you could get O-36 Fasttrack at WAL*MART, but the hobby shop would have the O-54 and gentler curves. Lionel also needs to revive the Model Railroading book they published in the 1950's. The collector is best served by a healthy toy and opereator market.