I have (32) 022 switches that I plan on putting onto my new layout design that I planned on RR Track. Will a KW transformer be able to power the (32) 022 switches using 16 on each variable control?? That is 16 switches on the A dial and 16 switches on the B dial. I would like to supply 20 volts to my 022 switches. Thats 32 bulbs for the controllers and 32 bulbs for the switches themselves. Total of 64 bulbs lit at one time. Should I use another bigger Transformer?? Like a ZW or Z at 20 volts? Thanks.
You need to get lamps rated for higher voltage than usual if you're going to run at 20 volts. The usual 1445 or 53 will burn out very quickly and probably melt the lanterns too. I recommend the 1450, which is rated at 24 volts and 35 milliamperes. At 20 volts, it will probably draw 32 milliamperes and put out less heat than the usual lamps would at 14 volts. For 64 lamps, that's only about 2 amperes, which shouldn't be a problem at all for any transformer that can reach 20 volts. You'll need 96 of them (2 for each controller). That will cost you about $100 from Mouser: http://www.mouser.com/search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=xVwIPGMSSamMuSX%252bA5Cysw%3d%3d
Bob Nelson
If you are running the switches at 20 volts, there is no reason to use the variable controls at all, or to divide the load between the two for any reason as it is all the same transformer. Just use the 20 volt fixed output in this case.
However, at 3 about watts per bulb, you are already beyond the 140 watt continuous output rating of the KW.
Rob
Three watts is about what a 1445 would consume (2.7 watts at 18 volts, 3.2 watts at 20 volts). The 1445 has a lifetime of only about 39 hours at 20 volts. Those are the reasons I recommend the 1450, which will consume only about .6 watts at 20 volts and should last about 27000 hours. If he switches to the 1450, the total power will be only about 41 watts, well within the KW's capability; and he will be replacing a lamp on the average every 418 hours, instead of every 36 minutes. (The replacement time for the lanterns will also be short with the 1445.)
Would it be fine to switch to the 1450 bulbs and still have the 32 switches on the A & B dials on the KW?? I would like to be able to power down and power up my switches. I did not want them on all the time, thus I did not want to use the fixed voltage tap for the KW. Thanks.
Sure.
Also, there's no reason not to put all 32 turnouts on one control, unless you just want to divide them up. The full power of the transformer (which is ample if you use 1450s) is available on either output.
Is www.bulbs.com a good website to buy these 1450 bulbs? Or is the one above that is mentioned better? And how do I get green and red bulbs in 1450?? Thanks.
A KW is not going to deliver anywhere near 20 volts, despite the heat-stamping on the back (and the instruction leaflet, various charts, etc.)
Reference: The Service Manual (I'm using the Greenberg version) at the back under the test devices. The charts with appropriate voltages for the various transformers show a max of either 18V (5C Tester) or 19V (5D and 5F testers) for the KW, with 12V for the C-D circuit (not the indicated 14). Adding on the 6V basic circuit (or actually, apparently, 6.7) gets the max to roughly 18 or 19V. But that's nominal -- no load -- under load it will drop 2 or 3V, leaving you with an actual 16 or so. I'll add that my KW, with about 115V in, produces a max just under 19V (no load).
My guess is that when Lionel effectively replaced the VW with the KW, they wanted to claim the KW produced just as much voltage as the VW, lest train enthusiasts and prospective customers get the idea that it was somehow or other "inferior" to the VW, so they more-or-less just "made up" the 20V figure.
Martin
If you use 18 volt bulbs with the KW 20 volt fixed voltage output you will definitely melt the lanterns. I suspect you will also melt the lanterns if you use the variable outputs. I put a diode in series with the lamps to reduce the voltage and heat. Using the 20 volt tap with the diode and an 18 volt bulb, the bulbs never get too hot to touch, and a single KW will power 48 switches. I used the diodes so I didn't have to change the bulbs and could operate the switches from the 20 volt fixed tap of the KW.
Bruce Baker
I do the same as Bruce. All my 022 switches are modified by placing a diode in series with the lamp right inside the switch motor. I also rewire my 022 controlers so a diode is in series with the ground connection (center post) connection to the lamps. This involves a modification to the controller, as follows:
1 - use a dremel cut off wheel to make a slit in the bar that is underneath the switch controller. The slit goes between the lamp sockets and the switch lever mount. 2 - solder a diode across the slit.3 - relocate the connection to the switch center post (ground) to the lever side of the bar.
The 022 bulbs will be a little dimmer, but much cooler.As a side effect, the bulbs will flicker as your train passes over the switch.I like the effect.
I have also followed Bruce's advice on wiring a diode into the 022's lantern supply wire, and it's worked out well (I melted one of the covers before I did this, but no problems since, even with the repro covers I'm using now.) Cheap advice, your KW will thank you. I also remember Bob N telling me to wire the diode the opposite way in each pair, ie cathode toward the lantern in the right-handers and anode toward the lantern in the left-handers, or some such way you can remember. This helps protect the transformer somehow--feel free to chime in here, Bob...:)
Diodes are certainly an option and will save substantial power while increasing lamp life. The total power will be about 122 watts with number-1445 lamps and about 109 watts with number-53 lamps. The average replacement intervals will be 31 and 16 hours respectively.
However, putting diodes into 32 turnouts and 32 controllers is a lot of work. And the 1450 lamps can get the power down to 41 watts and the replacement interval up to 418 hours. The $100 cost might seem high, but that's only about $3 per turnout. It might be a good idea to try the 1450s in one turnout and controller first to be sure that they are not too dim for you--they will be dimmer.
I don't see 1450s on that bulbs.com website; but Mouser has several hundred in stock. I have gotten good service from them. I would buy at least 100, to get the price break, and a few more for eventual replacements.
For the controller lamps, I'm afraid you'll have to color them yourself. Fortunately, you can buy paint meant for that purpose, like this: http://www.streetbeatcustoms.com/bulandtailli.html
GE #1450's are G31/2 Bayonette based bulbs. Deplending on the age, 022 switches used either screw base or bayonette based bulbs.O22 controlers use G41/2 screw based bulbs, although G31/2 would fit, and G5 bulbs might fit too.
If you are servicing your switch motors before installation, the few moments it takes to install a diode are trivial.
On the other hand, the modifications to the switch controller that I described above do take a little time, and are not reversible. If you ever went to sell the switches, that could be an issue.
You're quite right, CW. I assumed, O27er that I am, that all these lamps were bayonet-based. It looks like Lionel intended the 1445 or 1447 (depending on the base) for the turnout and the 432 for the controller. While the 1450 can help greatly with power at the turnout, there seems to be no alternative to the 432, which draws a whopping 250 milliamperes at 18 volts. Replacing the 1445s by 1450s and putting diodes into the controllers gets the total power down to 180 watts, which is still too much for the KW.
Here's a proposal: Use number-52 lamps in the controllers (14.4 volts, 100 milliamperes, G-3.5, screw base, 1000 hours) and either 52 or 53 (14.4 volts, 120 milliamperes, G-3.5, bayonet base, 1000 hours) in the turnouts. Use diodes in both places. That will get the power under 100 watts. The replacement interval is 16 hours.
So, it is not a good idea to use the KW to power (32) 022 switches?? Given that I keep the 1445/1447 and 432G/432R bulbs for the switches and controllers. Should I maybe use a ZW and use all 4 throttles? Maybe (8) 022 switches per throttle. I do have 275 watts instead of 190 watts. Sounds logical and might be the best solution. I do not want to use a Z for the switches, I use those (5) Z's to power my accessories and locomotives. Also, I check out 12 pairs of 022 switches to see if they are all working just fine. One of them is being stubborn with its non-derailing feature on the straight part of switch. I cannot figure it out. The bottom metal plate, when I take this off, it works just fine. Then, when I put the plate back on, it does not work. Any ideas?? I am guessing there is contact with the metal plate causing it not to work. Let me know what you think. Also, I have a 455 oil derrick, how long do you have to wait to get the oil to bubble? I waited a good 10 minutes, and nothing, it worked the last time I used it, waited about 5 minutes then I am pretty sure. Does the voltage have to be precise? Or if the higher voltage the faster the oil heats up?? Thanks.
Not a good idea to use the KW nor the Z. With those lamps, your total load is about 300 watts. The Z is designed for 180 watts continuously.
Here's the calculation: The lamps are rated at .135 and .25 amperes, or a total of .385 amperes at 14.4 volts. Running at 20 volts bumps this up to .461 amperes. Multiply by 20 volts to get 9.225 watts per turnout. Multiply by 32 turnouts to get 295 watts.
The lifetime of the lamps is 2000 hours for the 1445 and 250 hours for the 432--at 14.4 volts. At 20 volts, you get about 2 percent of this. The average replacement interval will be about 8 minutes.
Maybe I should not run my 022 switches at 20 volts. Maybe best to bump it down to about 14 to 16 volts. Which transformer would you use to power (32) 022 switches, a KW, ZW or Z?? Should I invest in another KW or ZW? Maybe run 2 KW's to just power my switches. Thanks.
I was intending to ask you today why you wanted 20 volts. I guess that's not a hard requirement.
I thought I would calculate for you the power consumption for various lamps in the turnout and in the controller, with and without diodes. Then you can pick a lamp type for each case, add them together, and compare that to the transformers' capabilities.
14 15 16 17 18 19 20 volts
52 with diode 26 29 32 35 38 41 45 watts 53 with diode 31 34 38 42 46 50 54 watts1445 with diode 35 39 43 46 50 55 59 watts1447 with diode 35 39 43 46 50 55 59 watts 432 with diode 57 63 70 77 84 92 99 watts 52 without diode 44 49 54 60 65 71 77 watts 53 without diode 53 59 65 72 78 85 92 watts1445 without diode 60 66 73 79 86 94 102 watts1447 without diode 60 66 73 79 86 94 102 watts 432 without diode 98 109 120 132 144 157 170 watts
The KW is good for 140 watts continuously, the Z or ZW for 180 watts continuously.
Lets say I wanted to stick with the 1445/1447 and 432's without diodes in all switches. What would be the best transformer to wire them all up to?? I have (5) Z's and a KW and ZW available. I am going to a Train show tomorrow, should I maybe get another transformer or 2?? I have operated my 022 switches every christmas, and I have been running all of them off the KW and I replaced maybe 2 or 3 bulbs a year on the switches and 2 or 3 bulbs a year on the controllers. I think I will save my money and keep the same bulbs as they are cheaper and more readily available. I went to my hobby shop and asked for some 1450 bulbs, they thought it was weird, of course they did not have any. Is there any stores, like Home Depot or something that carries 1450 bulbs. Just curious, if I decide to change over. I only have the trains up from October til Janauary. And buying 100 bulbs and having to paint them. Thanks.
I redid my last post as a table.
Don't buy any 1450s. They have bayonet bases and won't fit your controllers nor any turnouts that use 1447s. In any case, you would have had to buy them from a distributor like Mouser and get them shipped to you.
Just look up the power from the table for the turnouts and again for the controllers. Add them together and compare to the capability of the transformers. For example, if you are going to run at 20 volts with the original lamp types, the power for the turnouts is 102 watts, and the power for the controllers is 170. This sums to 272 watts, which is more than any one transformer should be called on to provide continuously.
If you drop the voltage to 15 volts, these numbers become 66 watts for the turnouts and 109 watts for the controllers. This is 175 watts total, which a Z or ZW can handle. For any higher voltage, you will have to change lamps, or install diodes, or split the turnouts between multiple transformers.
Okay, would it be okay to use a ZW and KW to power my (32) 022 switches?? If so, should I have (16) switches on the ZW and (16) switches on the KW? Now, as for wiring the fixed voltage plugs, I use terminal strips, which I tie in all the fixed voltage plugs to, then divide them up to the 2 transformers. Should have one wire comming off the terminal strip for (16) switches and another one wire comming off the terminal strip for the other (16) switches. The question is, that one wire to the ZW, should I just attach it the A throttle, or should I split it up and have (4) switches on each throttle. Does it really matter? Same for the KW, should I have (16) switches on the A knob or (8) on each throttle?? Now, with 7 total transformers, Running all the 022 switches, 3 trains at one time (Line 1 has a single motor berkshire, line 2 has 2 single motored budd cars, and line 3 just has a single motor gang car.) plus, all the (16) 71 lights which will be on, and all the lights for the plasticville buildings, about 12 of them. The total throttle used at all times is depending on how I wire up the switches. 5 throttles used for the lights and 3 main lines plus either 2 or 6 for the 022 switches. Total of 7 to 11 throttles used at the same time. Will this cause problems?? I know I have to worry about Amperes and how much is being used at one time. But, its not like the switches are switching all the time, and the lights are just lights, no motors. And the switches just have solenoids, no big motors like in the berkshires. I wonder how many Amperes I would draw when everything is going--thats 3 locos, (32) 022 switches lit up, (16) 71 lamp posts, 10 lights for buildings. Humm... Thanks.
As I said above, running the turnouts at 20 volts with no modification nor lamp changing requires 272 watts. A KW and a ZW have 140 + 180 = 320 watts available between them; so you can split your turnouts into two groups and run all of them on those two transformers. I would split the turnouts into a group of 14 for the KW and a group of 18 for the ZW. This would match the loads to the transformers in the same proportion as their capabilities. That is, each transformer's load would be 85 percent of what it can do continuously, giving you a nice 15 percent safety margin.
However, to keep from melting your lanterns, you might want to turn the voltage down a little from 20 volts if your turnouts are reliable at a lower voltage.
There is no advantage to splitting up the loads that you put on an individual transformer. You can get the full power from a single output. On the other hand, there is no harm in splitting the loads between outputs if you want to be able to control the groups separately; but you won't get any more power that way.
All the calculations that we have done take into account only the lamps in the turnouts and controllers. The power to throw the turnouts is substantial but happens only for a split second. The transformer can handle that extra power for such a short time with no trouble at all. So there is no need to think twice about it.
Okay, I got all that about switches. I will do as you said with the switches. But, I am worried about the other things that I am running on the layout. I will dedicate the ZW and KW to the 022 switches. But, I still have (5) Z's that need to draw some power or amperes. Not sure if I will be okay at the fuse box. I guess I have take into consideration all the other things I will be running besides the 022 switches and add up all the wattage and amperes they draw. If like you said, a KW is 140 watts continuous and a Z/ZW is 180 watts continous. If I have say 10 throttles at 18 volts, would I be okay?? Thanks.
lionel2...If I have say 10 throttles at 18 volts, would I be okay?? Thanks.
When are you going to do that?
Even with the 7 transformers fully loaded to maximum capacity right up to the point just before the internal breakers pop, you are only looking at about 14 amps on the AC mains. A 15 amp circuit should be fine.
One of them is being stubborn with its non-derailing feature on the straight part of switch. I cannot figure it out. The bottom metal plate, when I take this off, it works just fine. Then, when I put the plate back on, it does not work. Any ideas??
Look at the underside of your switch with the metal plate off. There should be either a wire or a metal bar running from each of the control rails (little straight or curved sections of track) to the contacts by the switch motor.The solder joints often crack, causing intermittent problems. Even if the joints look OK, try gently lifting each of the metal bars at the control rail end. If they lift, they need to be resoldered.
But, the problem is that I do not have a direct line from the plug I use for the 7 transformers straight to the fuse box, there are other things on that block of plugs. My layout is in the basement, and the whole house was rewired 10 years ago, but the microwave, dishwasher, and plugs for the kitchen are tied into that one outlet that I would use for the 7 transformers. Unless, I put my 7 transformers at a different location in the basement, on a block of plugs that is just for the basement plugs, then I think I would be more than fine. Hope that helps ADCX Rob. Unless I keep the same outlet, but do not use the dishwasher, microwave or coffee maker for example which is the only thing really plugged into the wall in the kitchen. Thanks.
cwburfle...All the solder joints look good when I took off the metal plate. What do you mean--the contacts by the switch motor?? I noticed the 2 strips of metal that run underneath the switch motor housing. Should I take off the switch motor housing and check on that?? None of the metal bars will lift up, they are soldered tight. humm..I will check on it again. thanks.
I noticed the 2 strips of metal that run underneath the switch motor housing. Should I take off the switch motor housing and check on that?? None of the metal bars will lift up, they are soldered tight. humm..I will check on it again. thanks.
The switch motor is held on by two screws. Remove the screws, and remove the motor. You should see a couple of contacts that connect the switch motor to the base. There are also sliding switch contacts. I suggest cleaning the contacts.I would use a clean cloth moistened with a little mineral spiritis to remove surface dirt. Then I would follow by burnishing the contacts with a fiberglass burnishing tool. Then use a clean part of your cloth to wipe away the residue. you can clean between the contacts by wetting an index card with mineral spirits and rubbing it in between each contact. (gently hold the contact down aginst the card with the tip of a screwdriver)At this point, I recommand against trying to adjust the tension on any of the contacts. The tension is probably fine, and improper tension can really have a negative effect on the switches operation.
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