Lionel in DC

[Anonymous]

hello, i am currently, in N scale but i do have a lionel train that i run every Christmas under the tree, due to the fact that i really dont have room for the bigger trains but i enjoy to run them every year. I got my frist lionel set in 1996, i a special editon Crayola set, it had a switcher, a box car, and a log, car , along with a crayola caboose. Well last year, the switcher, kinda hit the dust, and it kept stalling, So as an early birthday present my mom got me a 442 lionel steamer, my wish come true. But little did we know that my crayola set was DC operated, so i found out today that now i need a new ac controller, boy am i pissed. Has anyone ever heard of a Dc lionel train? If so what are they all about?[:(]

[rlplionel]

I picked up a LIonel DC set at a local flea market a few months ago. This was my first awareness of Lionel DC. Was going to sell it on eBay, but decided to keep it for a novelty. I can't say why Lionel decided to make some DC sets, but as you and I found out, they are out there.

[ben10ben]

I have that same set.

The set included a DC powerpack, although it could(and does) run very well with any modern AC transformer.

Your 4-4-2 should also run just fine with DC. I've run my two on it before. The 4-4-2 and Crayola switcher are internally identical(same motor, same electronic board).

[Anonymous]

It didnt work![:(]

[Anonymous]

don't get so worried nscaleboy! just get a simple AC "brick" transformer. These things are so cheap, usually around $10.

[Anonymous]

Whats the Ac Brick transformer? sounds like a good soulution

[Anonymous]

Its a small transformer used in most old starter sets, Ill give you a picture (link)...

[Anonymous]

this is a marx starter set transformer. You can tell why its called a brick! It dosn't have a whistle controler, but you can be without it!

[Anonymous]

what does that then conect to?

[Anonymous]

what does that then conect to?

[brianel027]

Tim, a clarification is in order here. Sometime in the mid 1980's, Lionel (as well as others today) started using DC can motors in many of their locomotives. Along with the DC motor, there is usually a solid state circuit board reverse unit that also contains a rectifier so that the engine can be run on either AC transformer or DC power pack current.

You Crayola set (Lionel #6-11813) was cataloged in 1995 and features listed included forward-neutral-reverse operation and an AC controller and power source. So this engine should run on either AC or DC current unless you bought it used, and someone else has removed the circuit board.

True, there are lower end Lionel sets made starting in the 1970's though the early 1990's that came with a DC power pack and with engines that had no circuit boards. Therefore they need the DC current and will run forward-reverse only (no neutral position).I'm sure the decision here was economic: no extra wiring/labor costs for the mfger. without the circuit board, and the little DC power pack Lionel used was the same cheapie one used in many Bachmann, Tyco, Revell, Model Power etc. starter HO sets. This biggest drawback here was not the DC loco, but the poor power and speed response of the power pack itself.

Just to throw another log on to the fire, I myself run with DC current and like it. Your Crayola switcher was also made as a separate sale Industrial Switcher loco. By removing the circuit board, I found I now had room to add some substantial weight to the engine (since it is all plastic construction), and the weight makes it pull much much better. I have found that the lower end locos with truck mounted DC motors do run smoother, more consistantly and quieter with DC current. I sometimes miss the neutral position, but that's a small drawback for much better operation.

I was also note I use off board sound and have no whistles or horns in my locomotives. Since these are activiated by DC current (though the whistle lever of the normal AC transformer), they would blow or toot all the time using DC current to the track.

[Kooljock1]

One further note. DC power will FRY RailSounds boards. If I were getting into the hobby, I'd ban all DC power so there are no accidents!

Jon [8D]

[Dave Farquhar]

Tim, I'm not sure how the DC transformers hook up, but an AC transformer hooks up to 3-rail track with what's called a lockon. Two wires run from the lockon to the posts on the transformer.

In a pinch I've also been known to just jam the wires into the underside of the track with a screwdriver. It may seem inelegant but it works too.

If the DC transformer uses a lockon you can just reuse it. If not, most hobby shops that carry Lionel or K-Line sell the lockons for a couple of bucks. Either a Lionel or K-Line lockon will work.

[brianel027]

Tim, a couple more things that hit me... you know there is a lock out switch on the back side of the cab on the left side of the engine. Depending on the position of the switch, it will lock the engine into going in only one direction.

Those little light weight engines (all plastic construction, short wheelbase) do have a tendency to stall esp. on turnouts, crossovers etc. Make sure you keep the wheels and rollers clean. Use 91% Isopropyl Alcohol to clean wheels and center pickup rollers. This is important on nearly any engine, but much more so on one like the Crayola loco which is so light and has a short wheelbase.

I also have found that on swtiches and UC tracks, the center roller can move and make contact with the wheel axle of the loco causing the engine to stop. So I made a barrier out of mylar plastic that I slip in the loco between the axle and the pickup roller and have never had the problem since.

If you carefully remove the shell (2 screws visable on the loco walkway) you may have enough room under the cab housing (above the windows) to add some self-adhesive lead weights (tire weights, available at NAPA stores). You can also get some in the back part of the loco shell opposite of the circuit board. By adding a little weight, you may be able to remove the traction tire (depending on how many cars you want to run with the loco) and you'll find this helps with the stalling, though you may have a little wobble with the loco because of this - but that won't effect overall operation too much.

I've literally completely rebuild and redone my Industrial Switcher and they run more than fine now. Made lots of changes to them as well as custom repainting them... I like to have a few engines in Conrail and Norfolk Southern. But I can pull 10 cars easily with them now.

Keeping the track clean (also using the 91% Isoproply Alcohol) is important with smaller engines like the Crayola one you have.

Just trouble shooting, but hope I helped.

[Anonymous]

I had/have a lionel DC set- it was the general set from the 80's. It ran well but the #1 problem was that the engine could not be run with ac current so it was relegated to lone/seldom operation...

since someone has said that the crayola set was ac/dc, then maybe the problem is that the set came with an AC transformer and his new steam engine is DC. DC transformers run AC engines fine assuming no modern electronics get in the way but AC transformers will FRY a DC engine at the motor.

I think we need to know for sure what transformer he has and what current both engines are designed to run off of before we can work it out.

Nscaleboy, can you look on the transformer and type us some writing on it? Especially anything that mentions "output"?

[Anonymous]

4-4-2.... use the brick transformer

lionel crayola set.... get a DC Ho scale transformer

[Anonymous]

thanks for the comments but its not the crayola one that i have the problem with, the crayola came with a Dc powerpack and now my 442 needs an AC powerpack, i have like a little black square that i have to snap onto the bottom of the track so it will give the track power, and that has two green wires comming off the power pack to the black controll box, with the 442 i put the wires to the ac part on the power pack but the 442 still didnt run!

[Anonymous]

The AC (accsesoie) outputs are FIXED voltage only. For the 4-4-2 get the brick, the lockon, wire and away you go

[brianel027]

Tim, you don't state what model number your 4-4-2 loco is. I'm assuming it's a steamer and since your mom got it for you, I might guess (unless she's a pro at looking for older Lionel trains) that's it probably a newer model. Which would mean that it also has a DC can motor in it. The model number of the steamer should be below the cab window of the steamer.

The power pack you got with the Crayola set is the typical 40W wall/controller unit that was standard with Lionel sets for a while. This does put out AC current to the track, although the amperage isn't much. It should run your steamer, especially if it is a neer model. Even the older models with open frame motors should run, although you wouldn't be able to run much more than the engine itself (no other lighted cars) because of the amperage of the wall pack.

If you can hook up the wires and get the Crayola unit running, then the steamer should run also, unless there is some kind of defect with the steamer... which unfortunately if it is new Lionel product (made in China) in not entirely impossible.

Although I will confess, I have had no problems with lower end Lionel engines. Usually it's the higher end stuff with the electronics that seems to be defective. And when I have had an spotty problem with new Lionel product, I do have to say in their behalf, Lionel service has been quick and prompt to get the problem fixed. Sadly, I know it hasn't been that way for everyone.

[ben10ben]

Are you sure that it's not your power pack? As I said before, your Lionel 4-4-2 should run just fine on DC power with no modification whatsoever. I have run my Lionel 4-4-2 steamers(both of them) plenty of times with the same DC power pack that came with my Crayola set.

One of Lionel's big selling points with their pre-Railsounds engines for several years was that they would run on AC or DC power with no modification whatsoever.

[cheapclassics]

It does my heart good to hear people discussing those DC-only sets. They were some of the most interesting sets Lionel made during the General Mills era (1970-1986). Some of my favorites are the James Gang (with the General), the New Englander, and the LASER set. All three had some unique characteristics, and even the Kughn era carried on the concept with the Midnight Shift and the K-Mart Microracers. None of them can really hold a candle to what is made now, but when I got started in toy trains, they were inexpensive, readily available, and mostly reliable.

Keep on training,

Mike C. from Indiana

[daan]

May be a stupid question, but does your 4-4-2 have a center pickup shoe? If it is bought secondhand (I dont know, but it could be??) and has been modified, someone could have taken off the center pickup for the 3rd rail in the middle.
I know it sounds odd to ask, but since you normally drive N-scale it could be that you didn't recognise it. The engine should run on your DC powerpack anyway. To an AC motor it doesn't matter if DC is put on it..

[Anonymous]

hope everyone is still reading this forum.

Thanks, im pretty sure its the power pack, because it says lionel / ho DC TRack, the number is 6- 28636 here are some pictures, it ran at the hobby shop, so im pretty sure its the transformer,








thanks for everyones help, the last thing i would want is to have it not work, i bought it from my local hobby shop for 118.00 is pretty much the same exact steamer that you would find in a regular lionel set.

[ben10ben]

I just dug out one of my old HO power packs, and pulled out my most modern strictly conventional engine. This particular engine was the Hudson from the Ballyhoo Bros. Circus set, and was made in 2001 or 2002, probably around the same time as the engine pictured above. All the electronics are exactly the same, and the motor is nearly identical to the one in your engine.

The engine took right off as soon as I applied DC from the HO power pack to it, and showed no signs of trouble.

Trust me, it works.


You might try one of your N scale power packs with it. I'm still leaning toward a bad power pack, as you report having two engines not run with it.

[Anonymous]

sorry, but i tried the train wont move. now do you have that hooked up to the dc or ac on ur power pack

[ben10ben]

DC. It's the same power pack I was using a couple of months ago to run some of my old HO trains, and the wires are still connected to the terminal that I used then.

[Anonymous]

No, that can't be right Bennie. Check again.

pax[C):-)]

[Kooljock1]

There were a TON of problems with LIONEL transformer/power packs in the 90's. I worked at a LIONEL Value-Added dealer at the time, and we'd order cases of replacement starter set transformers with the sets. This was SOP for us.

Having said that, your 4-4-2 is one of the most trouble-free engines on the market. Ben is right, in that it should run okay with your HO transformer, although the whistle will blow continuously.

Is your lock-on properly attached to the rails? That's the number one problem I've dealt with when dealing with folks new to the "O" Gauge Hobby.

In any event, try getting yourself either a CW-80 or it's BW-80 cousin from your local LIONEL dealer. They'll deliver better performance and style than what you're dealing with now.

Jon [8D]

[brianel027]

Tim, I guess Lionel made some changes in the Crayola set between the catalog printing and the actual set production. From everything you say, it sure sounds like you got a DC power pack with the set although the Lionel catalog doesn't indicate the set comes with that.

As others have said, it is probably the power pack. I run a good portion of my stuff on DC power and have no problems. As Jon said above, there were problems with those Lionel wall pack / controller units. I ran a shop and I had several folks bring those to me to see if I could figure out why they didn't work.

I would look for a bargain priced AC transformer of some kind. There are plenty of used Lionel units out there... you can find them on e-bay. The Lionel 1033 made years ago, is a very decent transformer which has plenty of power for a small layout, but will allow you to grow also. And with the B-U volage post setting, you'll get 0-11 volts to the track which is very good for the DC can motored locos like yours. Any Lionel transformer with a minimum of 6-8 volts to the track (as many are) will make your locos speed off like Superman.

Either that, or look for a larger DC power pack with at least 3amps of power. But as Jon said, if your D&RG steamer has a whistle, it will blow constantly with the DC current. You could also remove the whistle assembly from the tender and place it on the layout under a building or something like that. I've done this... it's not hard to do and works just fine.