What would you come up with for a starter set?

[Anonymous]

There have been topics on here before about how the manufacturers aren't doing enough to get young people or other newcomers to join the hobby. One thing that I think we all agree on is that toy trains should be sold in places where the general public shops. Imagine that you work for Lionel, K-Line, MTH or Williams. Your assignment is to design a starter set that people would be attracted to buy and would get them hooked on the hobby. What would you put into it? Don't worry about what is currently produced or what things cost. Those issues could be worked out later, besides, this topic is just for fun. Remember, this set is not necessarily what you personally would really like to have, but what others would enjoy.

Here's my idea for a set: A modern diesel like an AC4400CW or something simmilar, 5 container cars with 10 containers to haul double-stacked, an extended vision caboose, an operating intermodal crane (electric, not manual), a couple of semis with flatbed trailers, a pair of switches, some curved track and 30 pieces of straight track. It would be available in any of the current class 1's paint schemes.

My reasons for choosing what I did: It represents a modern train that people see every day and easily recognise. The railroads generally don't use cabooses anymore, but I had to include one simply because you just can't have a frieght set without a caboose-something's missing otherwise! It also adds some variety to the consist, as opposed to all the cars being the same. The reason for it being an intermodal train is so the crane can be included and that is so it adds some action and excitment to the set. The semis are needed so that you can have something to load the containers to and from. The switches and large amount of straight track are so that you can have the opportunity to be creative with the track rather than having just a basic oval.

So, what kind of a starter set would you create and why? Here's your chance to use your imagination and be creative!

[cheapclassics]

I think this is a good topic for discussion, and I will be pondering what to offer. What Sask had to say was a good start, and it will be interesting to see what alternatives will be offered.

Keep on training,

Mike C. from Indiana

[willpick]

Good topic! With a few minutes thought, here's my Starter set: SD70(not UP[:p]) 2 Husky stacks w/containers; 1 TOFC, 1 spline car w/container, then at random a tank car/ boxcar/ autorack; (last car would have a ETD attached). No caboose,but would include a 30% off coupon in the set for puchase of extra track, switches, and rolling stock totaling more than 65 $ ( with prices being what they are, this is an easily met requierment).
As for the track, I would have a basic oval of O36 curves, and enough straights for an 80" oval.I would also include 2 manual switches and tracks for sidings.
As part of the insruction manual, I'd include a layout book like Atlas had for the beginner- with simple designs that use the track from the starter set along with a few extra pieces (see coupon idea above), plus how to build simple benchwork, and basic wiring. If I really had lots of money, I'd have the layout book done on video . And then I'd have the layout up and running in the store-[:)],so that prospective customers can see what they can do with the set[:D].
well. thats my idea-

[Anonymous]

Great topic. Now, get the SOB's to listen.

I think MOST starter sets should have railsounds and Command Control. You can't tell me that it is still THAT expensive! I just bought a DVD player for $69 at Best Buy yesterday, so going by that, Command Control should be down there too.

Just as I think the products should be in STORES like Target and Wal-Mart, the cars in the set should be what is seen on the real tracks today. Sorry, but NO steam engines. Young ones have NO idea about them. Do you guys realize that parents today are 19, 20, 25 years old or whatever?? They have no idea about steam either. Make an ACELA and Amtrak F 59-PHI's!

Again, I emphasis, NO old-fashioned stuff. No diesels that aren't being used anymore either!

Just think about Lionel's sets over the years. They aren't the same as they were say in 1935. So, why do the sets today still reflect the 1950's-1970's?? Just plain weird and to a lesser extent, wrong.

[FJ and G]

Beep, 3 eggliners and Fasttrack would be esp. popular IMO.

[cnw1995]

I like Dav's suggestion about the Beep! Here's my thought - this set should be less a reflection of reality than something that is eminently playable a k a Thomas the Tank engine - or the old Brio sets - nothing remotely related to the reality of today's British or American railways but full of playability and reflective of what they might see in a Thomas or other train video. I recommend any short diesel engine in a colorful paint scheme - with at least a horn, a few cars (boxcar with opening door, open gondola, flat car with stakes, crane car (with a hook) and a caboose), a rail crossing track with gates, sound and lights - oval of track at least one switch with a bumper (for a siding). This lets users run this set with their toy cars and load things on and off the cars, as well as park the train to pick things up.

[MartyE]

First off, what a great topic!

I think I would probably have a modern engine like a SD80 with a roadname kids will reconize. I would include TMCC and RS into the engine so if the hobby catches on the set will still get use if the buyer upgrades to command. I would not need to include DCS if it were an MTH offering because it would already be in there.

I would follow it up with a couple of hoppers, some tank cars and at least one decent operating car such as a good log dump, coal dump, or even a milk car.

I would definitely include Fastrak or real track with a minimum O36 radius. 6 starights and the curve. One of the straights an unloader section. A good 80w transformer and at least one structure such as a station.

I would also include a certificate for discounts on track / switches to be redeemed at the local hobby store.

I would price it so that I may loose a little money initially but if I can hook 'em it could pay off in dividends.

[Dr. John]

I would like to suggest a Williams set (especially since they now produce their own track!). For a starter set, perhaps a Geep or NW-2 with a box car, gondola, tank car and caboose, oval of either 0-27 or 0-31 track. Throw in one of the new transformers from MRC (The new Pure Power single throttle comes to mind) and you have a solid, dependable starter set very similar to what Lionel offered in the early 50's. Since Williams already offers their Golden Memories sets, adding track and power seems a logical next step.

I also like the idea of using the Beep in a starter set. RMT would have to work out some sort of cooperative agreement with another company for cars, track, etc.

[ben10ben]

I think have two SD-40-2s or DASH-9s(or some other extremely common loco), both powered, with command control and railsounds at the very least. A string of bathtub gons for one, and then some double-stacks for the other would be good for rolling stock(I'd say 5 of each). Then, to add to that, a Lionel TMCC command set, two 180 watt bricks and direct lockons, SC-2, 2 complete circles of O42 track(Standard O), 24 straights, 2 UCS, and a set of O22s. I might also suggest an additional pair of O22s, two or four sections of O31, some additional straights, and a rotary coal dumper for the bathtub gons.

This combination would give you excellent play value with two complete trains. The two complete ovals would allow you to run both at the same time, or lash both engines up and create a yard area. Additional double-stack cars and bathtub gons should be readily available with different road numbers, and perhaps easily available in packages of 5.

All of this should cost well under $1000. A price of $600-700 would probably be comforatable, or even less if possible.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Amtrak Jack



I think MOST starter sets should have railsounds and Command Control. You can't tell me that it is still THAT expensive! I just bought a DVD player for $69 at Best Buy yesterday, so going by that, Command Control should be down there too.

In Asia, Lionel probably only has to pay $10 for a TMCC kit. It all has to do with making a profit... and thats another discusion!

[daan]

Splendid Topic !!!
In my work set set there is defenitively a beep! It's inexpensive, cute and attractive.
I would like to add a flat car with machines on it (Like diggers and a dumper), a small simple crane to lift the machines of the flatcar and a work caboose with a spotlight. Also at least 2 switches, extra track and some cardboard buildings.

In the passenger set I would like to use a steam switcher and a 3 piece set of lighted passengercars like those in the 50's with an observationcar on the end.
Also some extra track, 2 switches and a cardboard stationbuilding.

Both sets with simple sounds (wistle, horn and perhaps some chocho's and a diesel grunt), lights (and smoke for the steam engine).
Both in a nice box with colourfull catalogue and trackplans. They should be obtainable at toy-shops and giftshops.

[phatkat64]

Outstanding topic!!!!

Good chioces all, but try to keep it relatively simple if you're aiming at younger parent's making $8.00-9.00 an hour.

The Beep set is a great idea, if it's possible. I can't believe the big guys can't realize there's alot of profit to be made in a cheap, mass-produced starter set - as long as it isn't junk stuff. Crap sets that didn't work soon after they were used have probably killed more potential hobbists than anything!

Lionel and MTH have entry-level starter sets, but take a good look at them....
A caboose chasing circle for one thing. ADD MORE TRACK! ADD AT LEAST ONE MANUAL SWITCH! It wouldn't kill you, guys!

These sets need good play value right out of the box, or the interest will quickly wane.

And don't forget that most of the target audience is near the poverty level.

[Dave Farquhar]

Wow, lots of great ideas here. I'll see if I can chime in.

One thing J.L. Cowen and Louis Marx knew well was that it wasn't railroad afficianados who bought the mass-produced stuff initially. It was mothers, buying for their children. So they went with the most colorful paint schemes possible. If it wasn't prototype, so what.

So, with all that in mind... First, make it an O27 set. It's cheap and lets you put together an interesting layout in a small space. Plus it's 1/64 so it'll look right with kids' Matchbox cars and I understand at least Ertl has made some 1/64 scale toy buildings. The more stuff they already own that can work with this, the better--it makes things look more impressive without spending half a mil on a layout. The $9/hour crowd is a bigger market than the millionaire crowd.

A Beep or some kind of diesel switcher is a fine choice for a locomotive. Something that resembles something they remember seeing. Remember to make it cute. A Beep with Industrial Rail cars would be a nice combination, wouldn't it? As for the cars, use a boxcar with an opening door, because that's what kids have seen. Add a tanker because they look unusual, and, well, my girlfriend says every train should have one. I don't know why she says they should, but she's female, so if she says they should, then this one should. A gondola is a must because then kids can haul stuff in their trains. It gives it play value.

Throw in a pair of switches to give it some play value. And, what they hey, I'll be controversial here--ditch the transformer and run the train via remote control. Include a plastic building that the batteries go in. Make sure the train runs fine off rechargeable batteries. R/C makes it look like a high-end set, and dispensing with the transformer eliminates the biggest difficulty people have setting up a "serious" train set. Plus it gives the operators some mobility--they can follow the train around the track, without being tethered to the transformer's throttle. Make the switches operate off the R/C as well. And make them non-derailing maybe--kids make mistakes.

Now I wish I had some capital to go do this myself!

[Anonymous]

I think the concensus is to have modern locos and cars, things kids see everyday. The price is the problem. How can a young family afford 1000 or even 500 for a christmas present for 1 kid? You know making a profit is the american way its called CAPITALISM.
I am not sure how many of you have ever owned or ran a business . I have for the last 25 years. Lets face it manufacturers will charge what the market will bear. I dont have a problem with that. If you dont like the price then stop buying the merchandise and watch the price fall. My way of carrying on the hobby is to give away all my trains at some time before I die to some deserving young boys or girls. Well let me get off my soapbox... the wife says I have to do dishes...vacuum..dust......................................Tim

[eZAK]

Great replies! I hope that the importers are reading!

Here is what i would do.
I would make brand name starter sets.
There would be only two different consist. 1 Steamer/ freight & 1 diesel/ pass.
(doing this with existing molds and just changing paint schemes should save money)
They then would all be tied to what is hot with kids.

i.e. Lionel / Harry Potter, MTH / Spiderman, K-line / X-men, etc.

They should also be tied with the movie & video game promotions.
i.e. Buy a Lionel / Harry potter train set and recieve the latest edition book FREE!
Buy a MTH / Spiderman train set and get a FREE Play Station video game!

Well you get the idea.

You could also make them in very limited supply just to keep the collectors on their toes.[;)]

[brianel027]

Well okay, I'm sure everyone expects me to chime in on this one. Haven't I been talking about this for years?!!

YES, modern roadnames are an absolute must! Even if they're on the usual standard starter set fare. I have Alco's and S-2's done in Conrail, Norfolk Southern and CSX... kids might not know the different engine types, but they DO recognize paint schemes. Sure, the modern looking locos are recognizeable, but most kids don't know whether the S-2, NW-2 or Alco FA are still in use or not. They do reconize the modern paint schemes.

Modern kinds of cars too... a least one. Lionel already has the recently tooled Waffle Box Car and the Hi-Cube from the MPC tooling. I've made inexpensive coil cars from regular flats cars and redesigned the frame from the spring loaded dump car into an intermodal flat car that takes both the small Lionel 2 or 4 wheel trailers and the intermodal containers - so it can be done - because I've done it already!!!

There should some kind of operating car in every set... even the el-cheapo 9-inch flat with the dump bin on it. I agree with the manual switches being included, or at least a manual operating accessory like the log or barrel dump buildings.

Gondolas are better for sets than tank cars, but tank cars do look nice, even if they're not as much fun. "Universal" loads for flat cars is another idea. I've already designed multiple load holders that conveniently come on and off nearly any flat car. Parents that havre seen my idea LOVE it! It says VALUE to them! A flat car could have a removable foam strip using my concept so that nearly any kind of car or truck can be placed on the flat car without ever falling off! Again, parents LOVE this idea... so do the kids! It suits their ideas of play!

I agree too, that a new type of Dash-9 or SD type of diesel should be made, BUT it NEEDS to BE semi-scale with much better proportions than the Railking versions. Again this CAN be done because I've done it. The best proportioned Railking loco was the 14-inch SD-90 from a few years back with a 3-1/2" height... perfect size for a kids starter set. And it looks good with the kinds of cars likely to be purchased by a parent for a child's train layout.

Though I still strongly feel that other than immediate floor set up, FasTrack was an utter waste of time and money. Much more effort could have and should have been put into improving the 027 line of track: much needed revisions to the turnouts and maybe an additional wider radius curve, like the old Marx 34" diameter. I've talked to parents on FasTrack and I'm not seeing an real excitement over it other than the floor layout advantage. FasTrack needs to be made in a smaller radius curve, and yet the offerings are going in the other direction. The companies have totally forgotten that most folks are going to start with a 4'x8' layout board, for which FasTrack offers little.

I already know of 2 families that have ditched the FasTrack (well, they're using it for the holiday layout) in favor of the better suited, less expensive 027 track. As one dad said to me, "you don't have to be a brain specialist to see that the 027 track offers more layout possibilities and less cost." I pointed out to him that some items won't negotiate the "027" curves and the more toyish look. He was very quick to point out that "we can't afford those trains, so it's not much of a worry." That and this is a set for kids on which kids are going to play. He figured him and his boys could add ties to the track later. I wonder if the folks at Lionel have heard any comments like that in-between court appearances???

The other thing to remember with kids trains and starter sets is the word "play," not "prototype." What adults want and what kids want are not totally the same. And what adult train collectors and adults with children will pay for a train car or loco is also not the same. Realism is one thing. Scale is another. I have yet to meet a kid that was concerned with the scale proportions or scale detailing of a particular train... and I've been out of my way to talk with kids and parents about this hobby! PLAY is way more important to kids.

But this is real world, so there needs to be a balance between affordability and manufacturer/importer profit. Just remember these key words: "play value, durability, quality and affordable price." These are the words I hear over and over again. And nothing pisses off a parent more than to be told by some train guy in the know "Gee you paid that much for that Lionel set? There was a blowout mentioned on the train forum where that $200 set was only $99.00"

Guess what? That dad will not hear the word "Blowout." He'll hear the word "Rip-off " instead and wonder why the value-added Lionel dealer charged him twice as much for the same set. Now that dealer has become a crook in his eyes and he probably won't go back. And there's a good chance that train set will be forgotten about too, since it is now tainted with this bad experience. AGAIN, I have seen this actually happen... this is the TRUTH.

Ask yourself, do you like paying more for YOUR trains than you have to? And WE train guys have a good understanding of what things cost in this hobby... the parent with kids doesn't. They're going to feel the sting of "sticker shock" much more than we will.

Obviously there have to be compromises. But starter sets are the business card to the future! Too many compromises in starter sets and you compromise the growth and market for these items.

Gee, did anyone think I still didn't have strong feelings on this? [:D] Well toot toot, back to the depressing job hunt.

[cnw1995]

It is interesting to see the dichotomy in proposals between those calculated to appeal to 'us' - the train operator/collector - and those for 'them' - the non-enthusiast looking for an inexpensive, interactive toy. Unfortunately for 'them' - we're the market. We've discussed this ad naseum; toy trains just aren't attractive to the big retailers. Interestingly, I've seen more trainsets at Toys R Us lately, and they are colorful, interactive, battery operated, but also pretty 'cheap' and junky by any sort of quality standard....then again, most of the other toys seem to be like that - which could be another whole thread on quality vs. price...but I digress.

[cnw1995]

Upon further reflection, there does appear to be a place in the market for a parent to purchase a currently available O trainset as a sort of heirloom - something to play with together - man, Lionel got a lot of mileage over that sort of marketing to dads over the years, didn't they? Something along the line of 'hey dad, don't you want to spend time with your kids? Here's a way to do it..." A quality toy that hearkens back to the parent' s or more likely the grandparent's childhood, and with which they can play together with the child - and passed on forever - which I don't believe you can do with today's high-end electronics-filled models as compared to the more basic models, but that's another thread...in other words, I think this whole thing devolves into adding track and a switch to what would be essentially today's existing sets.

[Dave Farquhar]

Doug, I think just adding switches and a little more track to today's starter sets would accomplish exactly nothing. Those starter sets are based on designs intended to appeal to railroad enthusiasts. Play value and the "cute" factor are more important when you're trying to market to consumers. Did consumers lose interest in trains, or did train makers lose interest in general consumers?

The one thing those cheap train sets you see at Toys R Us do have going for them is cute factor. The cars are similar in proportion to the old Marx 6-inchers, and the locomotives are the old-time steam engines like you see in amusement parks. If they weren't made of cheap plastic, they'd look good. Really good. The things must sell, because stores keep stocking them. They don't seem to hold much interest, because I see them at garage sales frequently. The reasons why should be obvious: Low quality, little play value, no expandability.

Brianel has a great idea for adding play value. I love the velcro strip. Not prototypical at all, but it gives the train a purpose in a larger world. Give the train a role in the world the kids already have, and it just might stay there. Brilliant.

There has to be room in the market in between the $15 cheapies and the $200 Lionel sets.

[Anonymous]

Thanks to everyone who replied to my topic and great responses from everyone!

I couldn't agree more with what everyone has said! The manufacturers need to try to come up with sets that appeal to kids and newcomers who know nothing about the toy train hobby. I do agree with the mentions of having more track in sets-hence my idea of a set including lots of track. This actually is a good suggestion to all manufacturers of any trains-whether they are making kids toys or expensive high-end models. People can get bored pretty quickly with just a circle.

Also, though, there is much that should be besides that. I am in agreement with Dave about the cheap battery-powered train sets at places like Toys R Us. I confess that I do like the looks of them and own many of them-more than 30 sets I think. I see a train set for $10 at a store and say to myself, "ah, what the heck-it's just ten bucks, why not?" Most of them actually are O gauge and a couple brands even have knuckle couplers that will go with both Lionel and Marx. A few sets are better-quality and have features like good smoke and remote control. However, I think that many kids lose interest in them because I too see many at garage sales (where I buy many). If these sets were better quality and had more play value, there would probably be more kids who get interested in trains. When you think about it, though, Marx, Hafner and other manufacturers were the prewar/postwar equivalent of these trains and many current enthusiasts got started with these sets.

The company Echo Toys, which makes plastic battery-powered G scale trains, actually makes a couple sets with the Lionel name on them. The name Lionel obviously still means a lot to many people and these probably sell quite well. I think that most people who buy these don't realise that Lionel doesn't actually make them, which might not be good for Lionel.

Also, nealry all of these sets are steam and the majority are old-time steam engines like American 4-4-0's and moguls. Engines like this may have been popular back in the 50's when westerns were all the rage with kids, but today's kids probably wouldn't enjoy them as much as a modern-looking set.

Christmas still means a lot for trains and many parents and grandparents buy trains for Christmas presents for tradition or because they had one when they were a kid. They probably have visions of it becoming a cherished heirloom, but the kid looses interest because their mind has been warped by video games and the like. I've seen train sets on ebay before being sold by parents who bought them for their kids and used it only once.

With this in mind, this is where accessories and operating cars come in. Starter sets need to have action to them in order to keep kids' interest. One example of a set I can think of that has a lot of play value is one produced by Hot Wheels to go with their diecast cars. This set is somewhere between HO and S gauge and has a diesel (either an E unit or a completely wild-looking thing with a big huge engine sticking out from it), a passenger car, log dump car and naturally, an auto-rack car. There's a bridge, switches, a place to load the cars onto the train, a log loader and a station. Talk about play value! Something like this is what the O gauge companies need to make. Something that is exciting, eye-catching and will keep kids' interest. Plus, it has to be affordable!

I do sincerely believe that all of this is attainable, but the manufacturers seem to be content with the status quo and only make half-hearted attempts. I do feel, though, that many kids still do like trains, but don't really expand their interest because there isn't anything available or else they end up with HO trains and el cheapo battery-powered sets that end up getting wrecked.

Perhaps all of us here in the forums ought to get together and start our own train company? What do your guys think?

[FJ and G]

On the other end of the scale; perhaps in the Sharper Image catalog, it might make an interesting deal to have a Lionel or MTH starter set for about $4,000 or so, starring a Big Boy, about 20 freight cars, 100 feet of track and several switches, an operating accessory or two, and a ZW or Z4K and TMCC or DCS.

Let's not forget that many Americans have big appetites and supersize their purchases.

Come to think of it, not Sharper Image catalog but are more upscale catalog. For an extra fee, you could have someone come out, set it up, and give it a demonstration.

I think that sometimes, the tt companies are not really thinking outside the box (much less in the box).

[Anonymous]

Actually there is no real universal starter set. What they really need is to have KID'S SETS and HOBBYIST(or CRAFTSMAN) SETS. The kids' sets are cheap because it is just for kids to play with. they may or may not keep up an interest in it, and they may play rough or abuse it. It mustn't be a big loss when it is trashed. On the other hand a craftsman set should contain the same equipment selection as we hobbyists use. One should be able to build upon a starter set by expanding on it. The real junky plastic toy train stuff will just get set aside by an adult when he finds out that he has a child's toy and everybody else has the real stuff. Maybe a little pre-education might be in order before selling a set. A satisfied buyer is more likely to stick with the hobby than some poor guy who is ashamed of his trains. After all, how would you feel if you were among real hobbyists and they laughed at your train? Oh, how humiliating! Odd-d

[guilfordrr]

My set would be

Passenger: a Genisis and a few modern Amtrak cars, or
Frieght: 2 Dash-9s, oh, 5 or 6 hoppers, and a bay-window caboose.

[Anonymous]

I really like this topic, and I think that any starter set should have railsounds, or any working soundsystem. A good engine would be something like a Dash 9 or SD-70 in a colorful roadname. The cars should be all bathtub gondolas, with a rotating Coal loader, 30 peices of straight track should do, and some switches and O-54 curves.

The Beep idea is great because it appeals to kids, and it is very cost efficient.[:)]
Lionel Freak

[pbjwilson]

My idea is more of a novelty set . Engine, a classic Lionel 4-4-2 steam loco. Rolling stock, a log dump car with cigar load - vat car filled with your favorite spirits - operating boxcar that dispenses aspirin and a red lited caboose with two fabulous long legged female attendents. Accessories - water tower to refill vat car, log loader to keep the cigars coming, wicked Wandas house to keep the caboose stocked with fre***alent.