I am NOT trying to start a war, I just wanted to share an observation we had Wednesday night during the work session on my layout. We were talking about the past few isues of CTT and the other magazine when the subject of track plans came up. Now I know the I come from a small scale background where realistic operation is the norm, and my own layout refects that influence. The talk was about the trend in O scale layouts to be very large ( for the most part) and the ones that make it into these magazines are incredible to look at, but the track plans have very little if any room to do any type of realistic running. There are very few industries and switching opertunities, and most of the yards look like the are just to show off cars that are not be run at that time. I have even seen a bunch of track plans that have mutiple loops that are not connected to each other so the is no way a train can do any more the orbit the layout.
On the other hand I know of a few O scale layouts personally ( John Shankland's new CB&Q, my St. Teresa - Sulc Division) that are geared with operation in mind. These layouts are both medium and large sizes and have realistic scenery and realistic running schemes.
I understand that not everyone enjoys operation, and I made sure to include enough versitiliy in my design that I can just " sit back and watch 'em run". But why is there such a trend in o scale and 027 layouts to disreguard operation completely? I have heard people say that the toy like design of O and 027 does not lend itself to realistic operation but I don't agree. With DSC and TMCC, Ross and Gargraves track, and the great trains made by the differant companies,(just to name a few, I am not leaving out Fastrack or tubular track and concentional operation) I think that O scale and 027 can be run just as realisticly as the smaller scales. And with all the operating accessories like coal and log loders and unloaders, ice and milk cars and everything else that has been released in both modern and postwar eras, it can be much more animated then in the small scales.
Like I said in my opening, I am not trying to start a war here at all and please don't hang me for this post. I am just making an observation and sharing MHO!
Thanks you for letting me speak....now let the beatings begin!
You're protesting too much, but I'll take the bait anyway and tell you what - you don't try to convert me to operating realistically and I won't try to convert you to playing with toy trains. To me this a hobby, not a crusade, and therein lies its beauty. In the immortal words of a good friend whose band I was in for many years, "Whatever smokes yer shorts."
Texas Pete
"You can’t study the darkness by flooding it with light." - Edward Abbey -
I have a scale pedigree from my HO/N scale days.
That being said, as I designed my current 9 x 13 layout, the emphasis was directed more at railfanning. I would have loved to have encorporated a few sidings, but to be honest, adding switches just munches up real estate, and there might lay the problem. In that same 9 x 13 area, I could have an HO or N empire, that could have BIDS terminals or refineries, and switching yards. I think with the more advent of DCS and similar systems, you may see more operation minded layouts in the future. And I am quite sure (not taking the time to page thru the past year's issues...you can do that...) that we've had some operating style layouts in CTT. The staff's recent project layout seems to encorporate a little switching.
As the regular readers of this Forum already are aware, I am from the world of HO where, for over fifty years, I "operated" a detailed model railroad which included, among other things, individual cab control, blocks, sidings and scale scenery. When I moved to O27, I read articles, looked at catalogs and studied published layouts with the intent to duplicate my HO experiences. So, I think I know "where you are coming from".
I soon discovered, right or wrong, that the featured items were not really disregarding "operations" but, rather, just showing examples of what other train people have done and giving suggestions of track plans for the hobbiest. Perhaps the majority of guys and gals are hindered, as I am, by "space" and "budget", and therefore, limit the number of operating accessories that can be incorporated into the layout. As a result, there are fewer layouts to be considered for articles. Just my .
That being said, a review of the weekly "Sunday Photo Fun" entries show many realistic operational layouts. What is great about the hobby is that it is up to the "trainer" to be a scaler, a player or both.
Bottom Line is to enjoy. Thanks for reading.
My one big thought is that after a bit of time, running a train in a circle can be boring (my 2 cents). I understand that switching does take up space, but on my layout I have a 3 ft by 10+ft part that has a double track mainline, branchline and 3 differant industries ( see my trackplan in a post entitled layout pics 4-22-09 track plan included) the town is Williamsburg. There are plenty of ways to add operation to a layout without eating up tons of realestate.
Thank you all for this discusion, it has been raining for days here and I have WAY too much time to sit and think!
asch: Just returned from Florida a few days ago. Am still drying out. (But I know you needed the rain.) A great time to stay in and "play" run the trains.
Obviously, one of the main benefits of this hobby is you can exercise to a great depth whatever facit you enjoy. Case in point; I belong to AGHR club in San Pedro, Ca.. The club is located in an old WWII Army building, (similiar to the classical barracks). Anyway the layout goes the length of the building then loops back on a penninsula, then returns back along the same wall. The layout was NOT set up for Operators. On a typical running day, about 6-8 guys will run their trains on 2 parallel track, just following each other on the BIG circle. 2nd time around I'm bored !
So decided to put in an "Operating Group". It was really working well ! I felt you could make any layout interesting, and it worked. Here's what we did......
- Dedicated the two parallel track to, 1 Eastbound, 1 Northbound
- Scheduled a mix of 3 freights and 1 pass train on each route. Then set speed limits, freights at 25, 35, 45 smph, and the passenger at 60 smph.
- Pass train had two stop at 2 stations during a circuit with a required 2 min. load time.
That got the situation really going! Took 5 or 6 sessions before we could actually do it, with out backing each other up.
Then went to phase II....
Had various cars spotted at different sidings or sections of track through out the layout. Then got some small colored adhesive dots. Had each guy make a "Train Card" up with 6 cars on each, no 2 could be at the same starting position. Then put a dot on the cars roof, and identification of the car on the card. Also had a destination for each car. Then traded the cards so noone had the one they originated. Then let everyone figure out for them selves how to pick up their consist, and re-distribute it. Sure made for a fun event.
Then due to some "artistic endeavors" the whole thing fell apart due to some other influence. MAYBE might start back up again in the fall. (Hopefully the club politics are changing).
Don
I don't have space for a large layout. I also don't have a lot of extra money to spend so I have to be frugal. That said, I am building or should I say I am still in the planning stage the below layout. I have most of the board built and about half of the track temporaraly laid out. I want to get it all assembled to see how it works before I start screwing it down and building scenery. I plan to take a long time to do this. The fun for me is building it, not running it. The layout will be 18' x 14'.
I have one long loop for my passenger train. It does connect to the inner loop so I can occasionally swap out engines or cars. I have an inner set of loops and a few sidings so I can have a small amount of freight operation. I would appreciate any comments or suggestions from you all that might help me make my layout more interesting or practicle. Have I made any really bad connections? I did put in a Y so I could turn a train around just to make it more interesting so it won't just be going around in circles. I plan to put in some blocks so I can have more than one freight running in the inner loop.
Terry Thomann Fredericksburg, Virginia That is me on the left. My brother got the train TCA 09-64381
Some real simple math for ya: our trains are nominally twice as big as HO and we try to do as much as we can in a standard basement. To get the kind of operation that is popular with HO in a standard basement, would require a basement twice as large as standard. A luxury many of us do not have because we are standard types of guys. When we're in the mood for ultra realistic operation, we grab a lawn chair and head to the local industrial park and watch real men manuver real trains.
A lot of us do like to run trains in circles with no more than diverging routes on switches. Some of us want to re-live the old department store display layouts where trains ran in circles un-attended. We only know two speeds, fast and stop. Slow speed operation puts us to sleep. For some of us, it's about pressing our head near the track and sniffing the hot grease and ozone. Multi track switchless operation is popular because it allows us to sit back and watch a dizzying array of swirling color.
Civil War The layout will be 18' x 14'. I did put in a Y so I could turn a train around just to make it more interesting so it won't just be going around in circles.
The layout will be 18' x 14'.
I did put in a Y so I could turn a train around just to make it more interesting so it won't just be going around in circles.
Just a couple of comments:
1. Did you mean to say 10' x 14' ?
2. Including just one "Y" means that half the time you need to back around to reverse direction. If there is any way to include 2 "Y"s, it is worth the trouble.
3. Before starting to build, do some experimenting to see if your cars and engines can go over the "S" connections shown on the layout, (2 curve tracks back to back in an "S" shape. Some of mine can't )
I agree with your general philosophy, though. It looks like an interesting layout. I am not a fan of letting multiple trains run around endlessly. I like to plan operations, dropping off parts of the train in a siding and building a different train.
What is this "basement" of which you speak? Is it anything like "hyperspace" ("a fictional space held to support extraordinary events")? We have nothing like that here in the world of slab-on-grade....;-)
Bob Nelson
You have to adapt to your druthers, whether train running or "operation", and most of all in using your man-made living environment.
When I retired to our mountain cottage in 1992 my wife was unhappy with my carpet running. So I negotiated for the 14x28 kitchen-dining area with 18' high ceiling and built a twin shelf, 5-track operation at 7'-6" and 9'-0" above the floor. A "stepladder railroad" that tunneled through the pantry corner and bridged [two] from pantry across the hall to top of fridge cabinet and then on around the room and back to the pantry.
I had curves that would handle articulateds and long passenger cars with little overhang, but of course I was limited to running and displaying trains with little scenery aside from in corners and wall flats on straight-aways. I dismantled the operation 02/08, but for 15 years I never tired of just "running trains round-'n-round".
More than one way to "skin a cat"!
Civil WarThe layout will be 18' x 14'.
That should have read 10x14. Sorry.
That is me on the left. Christmas 1950. My brother on the right David got a Lionel train for Christmas. I was 1 and a half, he was 5. All I got was a wind up Dick Tracy police car. It was lost over the years, but last year I found and purchased one on ebay. I think even then I was more interested in the train. I have found a replacement of my brother's set and now set it up under our Christmas Tree. The layout I am building will be all O-27 with period engines, cars and accessories. I am trying to keep it to equipment that was available during the time we played with his set. We had a 4x8 foot layout in our basement. We had a cattle car and stockyard set. A Plasticville farm set and a couple houses. All of my cars will be staple end or bar end truck cars. I have found an original 1949 Lionel Catalog and related operation instructions and most of what we had back then. I have of course added a lot to it now and it is much more fun than just watching one train go around in a circle. I think the most fun though is finding these things from the past and making them work again.
One thing I left out of my 1st comment: Your layout plotting software correctly shows that there will be interference between the operating part of your switches and the nearby sidings. It is an easy job to take out the two screws and put the operating part on the opposite side. At least on the O-22 switches. It may not be so easy to do in your software.
What kind of layout software did you use?
Bob.MYour layout plotting software correctly shows that there will be interference between the operating part of your switches and the nearby sidings. It is an easy job to take out the two screws and put the operating part on the opposite side. At least on the O-22 switches. It may not be so easy to do in your software.What kind of layout software did you use?
Your layout plotting software correctly shows that there will be interference between the operating part of your switches and the nearby sidings. It is an easy job to take out the two screws and put the operating part on the opposite side. At least on the O-22 switches. It may not be so easy to do in your software.
Interesting that you noticed that. I am using 1122 switches. I don't think I can reverse these as you describe for 0-22 switches. I did have to use a short piece of track between each set of switches to gain enough clearance for the switch operators. This is not shown in my track design. I am using RR Track Lite by R&S Enterprises. I got this from MTH trains. It is not completely true to my scale since the smallest curve radius available in this software is 31, and I am using O-27, but it does give a fairly accurate depiction of how my track is being laid out. I have the upper 10x6 portion built and the track laid. It is pretty close to what is shown. I will be adding the lower right 4x8 section in a few days. The last thing I will build is the lower left 4x8 section with the turntable and 3stall round house. The turn table is going to be expensive and I will have to save up for that. I will have everything laid out and operating (except for the turn table and round house) temporarily by the end of summer. Then if everything checks out, I will start building the track elevations and screwing everything down. After that, I can start building scenery. I want to make sure that everything works absolutely the way I intend it too before I screw it in place. My rolling stock consists of two 2026 and one 2055 engines and several various cars of the 1948 - 1955 era. I bought a couple of cars with coil couplers and I don't like them. The always derail with I try to back them through a switch into a siding so I only use them on tracks that are connected on both ends. For my passenger loop, I have a set of 2421 - 2423, a 2429 and a 2432 vista dome. I just purchased what looks like a nice set of 2344 NY Central A-B-A engines. I'll find out how nice when they arrive. I really appreciate the comments and suggestions of everyone on this forum.
Here is my layout-in-progress. It's modeled after an industrial area with lots of tightly packed track and industries. I didn't have much room to work with and I had to work around furniture that needed to stay where it was. As you can see, there isn't much room for buildings on the layout so I am using a lot of background buildings and flats but I do have room for a full passenger station, platforms, small tank farm and switch tower. For me, this is a very fun layout for operations. The loop is connected so I can also run a train around me while I'm using the computer at the desk. Careful study will show that there appears to be extraneous switches in a few places. These allow for the creation of two passing sidings on the layout when running trains in circles. (One in the yard and the other by the Oil Dist./Intermodal area.) I use RailOp with this layout to generate my switch lists. Curves are O-54 unless noted.
I'll blame it on me not knowing anything about realistic operation. I don't know anything more than putting a siding and an uncoupler or track activation piece here and there. Also, most of the makers of starter sets do not seem to make add-on switches that allow close parallel tracks for yards, which makes them bigger than they need to be and my not get built at all. Realistic operation and realistic scenery are two completely different things, right? I do know that the more trains I can get running at one time, the better! My son insists on pointing at any train not moving and asking for us to fix that problem. i need a 5 track mainline!Wes
My own design criteria is to do the most with the least, whether it is switches, space, configuration, or what have you, while allowing some flexibility in operations. After decades in this hobby, and having to disassemble many a completed layout, prototype operations with a minimalist approach versus a unlimited approach is more of a creative challenge.Especially in O scale, versus the smaller scales.Given comparatively unlimited resources, design of a layout in relation to prototype operations is a "no brainer".The standard for layout design seems to be more is better. I see this reflected in the layouts featured, which infers unlimited resources, which reflects the utility of the design for others to follow. I would like to see more minimalist designs in smaller spaces featured as this is more often the design criteria rather than the sky's the limit. A small interchange, perhaps a design based on a bridge route, or an interurban would be a refreshing change from monster layouts...this would probably encourage more prototype like operations..
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
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