This Hobby Expensive-Maybe-Maybe Not

[BigJim]

I see many of you complaining about how expensive this hobby is. In many ways I will have to agree with you.

When I look at what it costs to add rolling stock, the price difference between HO and O is staggering. The price of a 25-50 car hopper train in O is out of this world, especially if you have to go with diecast cars. This is where I find the cost of O most prohibitive.

Compare even the availability of locos in HO and O. In HO chances are that you can go to the hobby shop and find any type of diesel of any roadname and take it home with you right then and there. The same loco in O is a different matter. Even if it was made, there is a good chance that it is not stocked or sold out lng ago. I find the latter would be most frustrating to newcomers to our hobby.

Now let's take the more select type of models. The HO brass specialty steam, diesels and rolling stock, in as much as brass is largely the only way they are made, and compare to the O brass models and O diecast models. Just take a look through any magazine that advertises HO and O brass and compare the prices to O diecast. I think you will find more often than not that the O diecast loco one is heck of a deal.

Something to keep in mind here is that O dimentions while twice as long and twice as wide are also four times the volume. You may also want to keep this in mind if you decide to paint your own models, you'll need four times the amount of paint.

[FJ and G]

The counter argument often is made that volume is lower in O, thus higher prices.

I would like to put that myth to rest.

In G scale, there is a similar volume of sales to 3-rail trains. However, you can frequently pay much less money for your locomotives.

I think that some of this has to do with the "must have" collecting mentality we have.

Mfgrs are happy to oblige.

BTW, in HO, I've purchased complete sets of trains for $20.

[FJ and G]

To prove the point:

Aristo-Craft SD-45: $317 & DCC READY & it smokes as well!

http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/ari/ari22491.htm

The semi-scale MTH Railking version costs approximately the same as the G-scale Scale version, yet, the G-scale version has more mass, AND, a 5-year warranty.

Lionel’s prices are always higher than MTH’s so the same model would be even more expensive if Lionel made them.

[wallyworld]

Toy trains have always been expensive when compared to the amount of disposable income the average family has. In the post war era, the growth of disposable income was matched by the place railroads had in our fathers and our own daily lives. My father bought this three year old a Marx set. I still have the photograph of my transfixed eyes watching this marvel go around in a circle. If there had been space travel, virtual entertainment, the interstate highway system, computers, virtual games, the internet etc, I honestly doubt I would have that keepsake today. The competition is fierce when it comes to play value against the monetary investment when faced with the comparitively little exposure or relationship todays kids have with real trains. Everyone sees the need to bring kids on board. My own experience is that cost is secondary to a great degree based on my own experience with my own kids. Kids programming is tied to the sales of toys whether it is Sponge Bob or the still formidable Thomas the Tank Engine. Adding literally more bells and improved whistles or very expensive remote command systems are not going to increase
the amount of young kids enetring the hobby. It's preaching to the converted. If my grandchildren or children see a show or commercial on TV that pitches to them- I heard the same refrain until they opened the gift on Christmas day. I purchased these things not my kids. What is a parent to do? Was I looking forward to disapointed faces around the tree? Here-take my credit card. The hobby needs a strong infusion of either a direct tie in to a kids show featuring trains or make some compelling commercials. I look at the cost of a Playstation or $300 for a train that goes round-who is going to win the play value per dollar competition? My kids were very happy to have ( non powered- cast metal ) Thomas the Tank toys without my spending the grocery money. What does that tell you about the power of the media in both instances?. These guys should pull some Rand D money out of their bankroll if they have it and pool it and get some interest going in kids- as much as I like the concept of command and control systems for my trains which for me is too expensive-I would rather see the money invested in a longer term proposition to keep the hobby around another few decades.

[brianel027]

Whoa! Thank you wallyworld.

To quote Lionel CEO John Brady, the "ever-elusive target consumer pair – the father little boy and his dad" are EVERYWHERE. He makes it sound as if they're hunting for the lost Do-Do Bird. What isn't every where are the TRAINS themselves; Brady wants to blame video games. Truth be told, video games are sold everywhere - from gas stations to toy stores. Trains - of any brand or scale - are NOT.

By the nature of corporate retailing today, all the companies favor the large big-box mail order train venues, versus anywhere else. Small dealers have good reason to be frustrated... they're the front line for introducing the hobby to newcomers and they get very little support or thanks from the companies. What they do get is to watch their inventory investments collect dust while the other places get the blowout margins because they can afford to buy out the entire remaining production run. Generates quick cash for the companies and shoots their entire value-added dealer network in the foot.

Most of the problems and blame with getting trains to kids and lowering prices sits squarely with the companies themselves. No one else.

The companies, and Lionel in particular, should stop concerning themselves with "collectibles" and maintaining "collectible status." The market (ie: train buyers) will determine what is and isn't collectible.

The train companies should worry more about marketing, advertising targeted at youth, reasonable list prices and actually supporting what little dealer network they have left.

[Frank in Steam]

Here, here agent 027, why don't "they" get it? We are in a death spiral, with no end in sight until the 'Big Boys' turn their mind set around. People can't and won't buy it if they don't see it. On the forums we regularly see another train shop closing. Don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge the big guys success, they have worked for it and deserve what they have built, but its time for the importers to support the local hobby shops. Then maybe the hobby shops with a little more breathing room can support the hobby more.

The local clubs are doing all that we can, but it (marketing and out reach, publicity et al) needs to come from the top.

Now back to the topic and tieing this up - greater volume can mean lower prices for us and greater profits for the importers and hobby shops.

[nblum]

I think the answer is right in front of our faces, we just don't like it.

Video games, the web, 300 channels of cable TV, streaming audio and video, .mpgs, organized sports for kids, and Legos simply provide better entertainment and value for the vast majority of folks than toy trains. Three rail trains will never again be a remotely mainstream hobby, just as model railroading in general, model airplanes, fixing your own automobile and other activities that used to be much more part of daily life fifty years ago have cratered relatively speaking.

That's not to say don't expose the public to what we like and do, but let's be realistic for everyone's sake. This is a fringe hobby of limited appeal to most folks. It is expensive compared with other forms of entertainment and limited in many respects. If I had the choice of reading good books, watching Masterpiece Theatre or playing with trains for two months running, playing with trains would be in third place. I'm sure most kids would feel the same faced with choices like organized sports, watching ESPN, video games or just hanging out with peers. Extended hand wringing and longing for the past won't change any of that, IMO.

[alton6]

Big Jim,

My view is that I will pay more, if necessary, (although, being thrifty by nature, I generally buy used) for O gauge because these models have the heft and feel and looks that I LIKE. I've picked up a few HO cars and a powered and dummy NWP diesels, which were native to my stomping grounds, but frankly, HO just doesn't DO IT for me. To understated and fragile for my taste. I do admit to being intrigued by N scale, though.

To each their own. We manage to find money for that which we love.

Carl

[FJ and G]

I too have been intrigued by N scale because of the vast empire you can create. IMO, HO is a poor compromise because you can neither create anything vast nor do your trains have heft.

Also, N scale trains seem to operate just as smoothly, if not more smoothly than HO.

Having said that, I've got my hands full right now with 3-rail trains and to topic of expensive hopefully won't concern me as I think I have enough.

That leads to another interesting question, that might make a nice post:

"How many trains is enough?"

dav

[Anonymous]

You want to make a vast empire? If you've got the money & the eye-sight, try Z!

Tony

[Anonymous]

Ther is some truth to what you say, but also most people don't have room to run a 50 car train. [:D] However i run up to 25 cars but mostly i conentrate on small, local freights. 5-15 cars. I think that there are a lot of good deals out there, if you are willing to look for them. 200-300 for a sound equiped, coil couplers, tmcc equipped train is really really good. After that, there are many positive aspects of O, the larger size, the history, the detail. So i will enjoy it,a nd run my trains, even if they are not super long, they work for me. LOL Bill

[nitroboy]

For someone like myself who has a very limited budget for trains, this is a very expensive hobby. But, I like a good hunt, and there are bargins to be found. So, some of the joy for me in this hobby is looking for what I want, at bargin prices. I can wait, years if need be, the trains will be there, even after I'm long gone. Patience is the key.

Dave

[Anonymous]

Dave I to take a slow approach to the purchase of my trains. You are
right those trains will be there, it could be a show or even a private
collection but they will be there. As for me I have plenty to do on my layout
as I travel through this world in search of that special train.
Keith

[jkerklo]

The reference to train manufacturers focusing on "collectable" trains brings to mind something that occurs to me everytime I see a "Franklin Mint" type of add. There are a lot of products advertised, and I guess sold, as "collectable:" coins, bubble-gum cards (without the gum), plates, figures, ... ad nauseum. I always have the thought
that, almost by definition, anything sold as "collectable," can't be. Maybe it is the same with new "collectable" trains.

There were two layouts at the RMD/TCA Christmas show that were very encouraging to the "get kids interested in trains" discussion.

One was a kids group that setup a toy train layout. The other was a family (a couple
plus a bunch of kids, girls too) that hauled a nice layout, set it up, and manned it for two days. They all seemed to be having great fun.

Maybe our out reach efforts should be focused on those kids that have an interest in trains, rather than trying to compete with video games and other distractions. With the general decline of trains in everyone's lives, we can't expect the magnitude of interest in toy trains as in our childhood. My dad had worked on trains. I didn't. My kids never will.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[brianel027]

Neil (nblum) and John make good points. Of course trains will not replace video games. And I think it's understood that the train youth market will never be as it once was... times have changed. BUT like John, I have seen that interest is still there.

I admire the efforts Mike Wolf and MTH are making towards exposure of the hobby. It isn't just the responsibility of train guys and clubs - we can sure help - but the companies have to want it and have to take the lead role. How to reach the youth market has been a topic of discussion since I entered the hobby again in the early 1990's.

In the last issue of OGR, the company reps for K-Line and Lionel wrote about a few of the problems in the hobby. Yet some of the problems they mention are problems they have to deal with, not us. As Nick Ladd for K-Line spelled out (and I quote):
•Saturated inventories in all train categories at the retail level.
•Potential obsolescence of control systems and other electronics.
•Complexity of operating many of the systems now offered.
•Decline of the hobby shop as the focal point of the industry.
•Lack of competent product repair service in many locations.
•Incompatability of different track and control systems.
•Product dumping and extreme discounting.
•Decline of traditional train shows and meets in favor of internet selling.


The above are company problems. They are the only ones who can do anything about it. If they want local dealers, they have to support them and help make them profitable with decent margins and equal footing with mail order venues. If they want compatability, they need to comunicate and cooperate and not try to wipe the other guy out. Which probably won't happen with all the bad blood between them: it's hard to be friendly with someone you taking legal action against. They have to have better quality control. They need to offer the blowout prices to all dealers, not just a select few.

I do disagree with Mr. Ladd on the internet... I feel it has helped the hobby. Not just with forums like this. ebay is wonderful and allows people without shops nearby to find and buy trains. And since the companies do no major advertising, it allows the novice and beginner the opportunity to find out more about trains. K-Line should take advantage of this and have a link on their website for beginners and newcomers showing specific K-Line products that might interest them.

Lionel has had all this wonderful licensing of their name on all kinds of products. This has been great name promotion. Too bad there wasn't any other advertising to back it up and take advantage of the name being out there. Or a tag line on the various products stating something like "for more information on Lionel Trains call 1-800-LIONEL." At least potential customers can do a search for "Lionel" on the internet and hopefully end up at their website... a real benefit of the internet.

Maybe the internet has hurt meets in the sense that dealers at shows and price guides no longer dictate what people have to pay for trains. Which brings me to the following comment by Lionel's John Brady (as he was on the topic of the demise of one of the train makers and the loss of retailers):

"As trains pass from collectibles to commodities (and before they regain collectible status in the next five years), there will be a shakeout and we will see friends and collegues close their doors because their businesses are no longer profitable."

I don't think the companies should worry about collectibility. It's up to the market, not them. As mentioned by John Kerklo, you see so many products that say "collectible" or "limited edition" on the packaging. If everyone who buys that stuff sticks it away without ever opening and using the stuff, that's a sure-fire sign it won't ever be collectible.

Collectibility is far more determined by accessibility. Things that tend to be collectible tend to be things that everyone had, that everyone knows about, that everyone used or played with. As people look for those things again and start paying better prices for items that are in better condition, this is where collectibility begins.

I think that there's this myth that everything Lionel makes is as good as gold and sure to go up in value. Lionel has certainly profited from this. But we forget that the trains of the past ARE collectible because THOSE are the trains that everyone had and everyone played with. Adult collectors tend to want the original pieces that they had in their youth. This is the market speaking, and the market determines collectibility.

Look at all the postwar reissues. The dies and tooling for many of those items are already made. Many postwar reissues list at between $45-$60 and then get blowout at half that at a few places. Maybe it would make more sense to have the prices be reasonable in the first place, so that the items have a chance of selling anywhere, not just from the large mailorder business (that can afford to buy out large quantities remaining stock) and then undercut everyone else who has to sell the items at higher prices. Doesn't this strike anyone else as dumb, or is it just me??????

The companies need to support their dealers and make it easier to be a dealer. There are so many rules and requirements. No, it woudn't be a good thing to have more bad dealers. But I can understand why many small dealers are grouchy. There's darn good reason for it, even though it doesn't help sell trains. Why should train dealers have slat walls, wall-to-wall carpeting and track lighting, when big box retailing in general has turned to simplified display with a bare bones approach. Small dealers resent being virtual catalogs for buyers who then turn to mailorder for the best price.

We do need display layouts, which you don't get from mailorder. Or at the very least promotional videos and/or DVD's from the companies displaying product. And not just top shelf product on stadium-sized layouts. Average people need to see average trains (that they can afford) running on average sized layouts (they they will most likely build).

Everyone talks about the continued trend of electronic control. How about a simplified basic system like MTH's Railking IR system that utilizes a handheld remote that works from the transformer or a track mounted sensor, so that any kind of trains can be run. Insulated train blocks could be made with use an insulating pin and a trackside box with a sensor that would attach to the track. And couldn't a generic steam and diesel Railsounds work off the current to the track from a trackside building with speakers. The consumer could choose between steam and diesel sounds. If the electronics are not in each and every engine, this can not only reduce costs, but potentially enhance product reliability.

Or how about using a plug-in system where the customer can install the additional electronics as his or her interest in the hobby grows and develops.

I could talk about this forever. Sometimes I think I have. There are so many things that could and should be done. There is no one miracle solution. I am certain that the companies have committed a great deal of money in the new scale product tooling and electronic development. Which may make paying for promotion even more difficult. But there are ideas I believe that if put together in a cohesive effort will yield results.

The other thing that needs mentioning, is that the overall US economy stinks. Most of these trains we can buy are made in China - along with nearly everything else. The trains cost less to make, yet more to buy. But who will be able to afford to buy them????

Customer service is now being handled in India in greater numbers. These are jobs Americans used to have. Companies are making more money, while American workers are making far less having to turn to low-paying retail service jobs, which also offer no benefits and no security. There are jobs requiring a college degree starting at $8.00 per hour - and young people are now gladly accepting them!

Now I'm not trying to change the subject, but in reality, these trains are not essential purchases. Prices need to be more reflective of the changing economy. Otherwise it will be a hobby for the well-to-do. And without real growth in the numbers of those interested and participating in the hobby, prices will only go in one direction: down. Not only are there plenty of new trains being made, but there's loads and loads of used ones out there... which are also competing for the train buyer's precious dollars.

To go back to another thread, if I were running a train company, I'd make growth of the customer base job number one with the fervor of going into battle. I wouldn't wait around wishing and hoping one of the competitors goes under, when it could just as easily be me.

[wallyworld]

brianelo27 hit the nail on the head. Tom McComas is a great example of what I was referring to in my earlier post. Here is a guy who really promotes this hobby whether it is his appearances on the old Tom Snyder Show or his "I Love Toy Trains" videos or Toy Train Review. This is a media savy guy who loves our hobby. Let him get some development money from the big guys and put a kid's show on PBS and watch the sales go through the roof. This is not rocket science as far as marketing is concerned. Look at rail preservation-any museum that has cobbled together a Thomas The Tank ride has seen their attendance skyroicket and is a real innovative and significant source of revenue for them. My kids and grandkids love tha TM video even their freinds who have no exposure to trains are enthralled by it. Another stand up guy was Lewis Polk and his company in the large scale market. This was an outfit who was not shy about posting on a internet forum and that has to be admired and his example followed. He was sincere and dispelled many misconceptions and was very informative-he was head of the company for goodness sakes!
We all played nice when he posted because we honestly appreciated the fact that he was interested.

[ChiefEagles]

Not really. Wallyworld is right. This was discussed a month or so ago. Compared to the $$ value in 1952 when my parents bought my Lionel and today's $$$, not too bad. I fish a lot. Check out how much a Ranger bassboat costs. More than the Suburban or extended cab pickup to tow it. Fishing rods and rels are high priced too [if you buy quality just like trains]. Gas to make those fuel injected motors run a boat at 70 to 80 mph has gone sky high. Hunting is the same thing. Just bought a .17 cal. bolt action rifle [the new hot little bullet] and it was not cheap. You can buy a good Lionel engine for teh price of a Beretta .45. So, all hobbies are expensive if you look at the $$$. If you look at the pleasure and stress relief, not at all. Now I'm getting on my farm tractor [I live in town] and plow the garden to plant my plants from the greenhouse in my back yard. Then get on my John Deere mower. I live in town!!! Get my drift. Its what makes you happy that and then it is not expensive. [:)]