Are toy trains really model trains?

[FJ and G]

Oh boy, another philosophical discussion.

The train of thought came about after looking at MR Planning04 magazine's "Dominos" layout, which essentially is humongous code 100 HO track, no ballast, on bare plywood, simulating a switching operation. The layout was among the "model train" layouts featured.

Now, I won't give you an example, but conjure up an image of a fully scenicked hi-rail layout with scale locomotives and cars, perhaps weathered, with a fully functional signal system and all of the bells and whistles. Is this layout more "toy" than the dominoes layout?

Changing gears, back in the late 60s, I used to get MR off the shelf at the local "book store" which also sold food, clothing, and other items (you won't find many of these today). I used to see Lionel and other toy train ads and things in these magazines.

At some point in time, toy trains became divorced from the scale model trains and branched off with their own magazines. I always was curious if this split was a result of toy train enthusiasts wanting their own magazine or scale modelers getting tired of seeing a third rail; or, perhaps both.

Anway, switching gears again, my own feeling is the the term "toy trains" often denigrates what for many of us feel are actually model trains. If the word "toy" need be applied, it should be applied to all model trains, because, so it seems, they all are toys.

Dave V.

[jkerklo]

All are toys. Maybe in that "the only difference between boys and men are the cost of their toys" sense, but still toys. In a way, so is my '68 Vette. It is something I have for playing, rather than to exist. (Or, maybe, I do need them as a reason to exist, though, let's not go there today.)

I think we emphasize the word "toy" to distinguish our hobby from the strictly scale guys.

We like to play with our trains. We have operating accessories that increase play value. Some parts of our layouts may be more whimsical, than prototypical. Increased play value.

We may also stray into more scale/prototypical layout elements. Showing off is also playing.

Anything that is a recognizable depiction of something can be called a "model." A Thomas train is still a model, because anyone would say it is a model of a train; accuracy doesn't matter much for definitional purposes.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[spankybird]

I couldn’t have said it better John.

They are

ALL

toys. Unless they are paying the bills, putting food on the table, etc. they are our toys. If need be, we can survive without them. We just wouldn’t have as much fun.

So maybe the person who has the Hobby Shop or the ones who work at the manufactures can say it’s a business, but without us buying them, there wouldn’t be any business.

Many of us have had a time when our trains were in a box and we all lived thru the next day.

tom

[Anonymous]

Well maybe it takes an old geezer like me to remember things for you youngsters. The reason that CTT was started because there was absolutely nobody printing things about toy trains...tinplate...if you will. MR was experimenting with publishing three rail pikes, mostly HiRail. It provoked howls of disdain from the scale guys and lots of interest from three railers. It was decided to try out a one time magazine addressed to three railers. It was successful so it was expanded into CCT. Prior to the few articles in MR nobody, not even OGR was writing about tinplate, especially collecting and repairs. Also nobody wrote about the markets either. We got it good if we only encourage BOTH magazines to publish and compete so we can have them both. Odd-d

[Anonymous]

Like John Kerklo says above, they're all toys, from Z to G and everything in between. My understanding is that the "toy" moniker was assigned to S and O primarily, because the scale folks consider their trains "serious" and ours anything but. To me they're all equally toys and they're all equally model trains too. Literal scale doesn't make a train any more a "model." Some people just spend a whole lot more time and money on their models than others, as well as have different objectives.

[FJ and G]

Thanks, Odd-d, your historical memory is good and adds to our appreciation.

--------------------------

I guess what I was trying to show with my limited examples is that some HO people run their trains in a more toy-like setting while some 3-railers run theirs in a more scale-like setting, thusly blurring the distinctions and making them all toys.

I suppose you could make the argument that 3-rail trains are closer to the prototype than N scale (if you wanted to argue for the sake of argument) because 1/48 is closer to 1:1 than 1/220 (or whatever N measures out to)

[brianel027]

Odd-d, I missed you at the last meeting of the "old geezers club." The one thing I have going for me is I don't look like I should belong to the club. I mean, I like Pearl Jam and not because I have kids who force me to hear it. I actually like Eddie and the gang!

Maybe it is like Woody Allen once said, "I would never want to belong to a club that would have someone like me for a member."

Ooops, maybe I shouldn't have said that here. [8]

YES, I agree with all you folks so far. Poetically speaking, they ARE all toys.
But as we all know in reality, poets don't make much money. If your son came to you and said "Dad, I want to go to college and become a poet" you might sit down and have a little talk about what "poverty" and being a "loser" really means.

Likewise, if the graphic designer of any new train catalog decided to put "K-Line Toy Trains" * across the front cover, a similar conversation might take place about what "loss of sales" and "pink slip" really mean.

Perception and reality are two different things... they may all be toy trains, but it's best not to call them that right now. Even scale engines, if they say it runs on 027 track, gets frowned upon as being a toy.

*PS, not picking on K-Line. Insert the name of your own favorite precision scale prototypically accurate model train replica maker in that spot. [:D]

The preceeding disclaimer was sponsored by The Rivet Counters Club of America. [:D]

[pennsy_fan]

Aren't footballs, baseballs, or even chemistry sets under the tree for a kid @ Christmas time considered "toys"? But, when adults "play" with them its pro sports & science.I think it just depends on who you ask. I'd even consider calling them "stress relief" or "therapy"[:I]. Ask any wife whos husband has a classic car that he tinkers with.....she'll tell you "thats his TOY"...(By the way..jkerlo..how many cubic inches do you have under the hood of that vette?)[:D]

[pennsy_fan]

Had to add this,
I personally think that , Yes, model trains are toys........and models, and collectables,and a hobby, all of the above.

[jkerklo]

Pennsy_fan

Base 327

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[Big_Boy_4005]

I've been having computer trouble all day long, and finally fixed it, so its time to weigh in on this one.

I think the answer is BOTH and there is even a third possibility. It all depends on the owner's attitude toward them.

I'll start with the third possibility first. They are collectables and in some cases antiques. Place them on a display shelf to be viewed, and that's what they are. They aren't toys or models, they're museum pieces.

Put them on the track and run them in circles, and they become toys.

Arrange the track into a realistic configuration, and they become models.

This is another one of those "NO WRONG ANSWER" questions. Personally, I have moved on to the model stage these days, because that is the last challenge. When I was a child, they were toys, and I loved to watch them go around and around.

When I got older I didn't have a place to run them, and built shelves on every wall of my small apartment to display them. It really was like a museum.

Then it was back to circles for a while. But now it is on to modeling for me.

Of course, none of this matters as long as you have fun!!![:D][8D]

[ChiefEagles]

Well, Mr. Webster says, "A small object, usually built to scale, that represents another, often larger object." Now the key word is "usually". Not shall be, must be or required to be. So, we are "modelers". Bet we have more fun playing than the exact scale modelers do. [:D] Can you imagine sawing lumber and loading a Z. Even HO is no fun to dump coal in a car from a coaling station. They are pretty to watch run around. I think one thing taht make me feel good is to watch kids come and see your layouts. Eyes get big when an O or O27 makes its trip around the layout. An even though not seen on the tracks today, they love to see the the smoke puff from a steamer and hear its whisle. Even a big boy of 57 [almost 58] does too. You're as old or young as your heart will let you be.

[wallyworld]

Does a chicken have lips?

[sulafool]

Brianel, I think it was Groucho Marx who made the club membership statement, FWIW.... still good either way!

[Anonymous]

I have to agree with the Big Boy....

When I was an HO scale modeler (way back in my younger days), we tended to hear "toy trains" as an insult, and remind people that this was "Model Railroading"! Now I love those very same Lionel trains that use to make fun of, and enjoy looking at, and running my toy trains.

I realized how much I had changed over the years when I saw an issue of MR several years ago that had a letter from a modeler. This modeler actually said that it was an insult to railroaders everywhere if you don't build accurate models and run them in a prototypical fashion. I remember how I used to feel that way.... all I could do was laugh. It's funning how the years change your perpesctive, especially when you have full grown kids and plenty of working years under your belt. I'm just to tired to take any of my hobbies very seriously. I'm building my layout now with the grandkids in mind..... and I am going to enjoy it.

[IRONROOSTER]

I always thought that toy trains referred to Lionel, American Flyer, etc and was used mainly to distingi***he large flanges/couplers from the smaller and the Lionel O27 line which is smaller than O scale.

Frankly, the Lionel, MTH, S Helper. American Models. etc for the most part look as good as the HO and N (actually better because I can see them). But they are all models of trains. And they all have compromises to run better, couple better, track better, turn sharper, etc. Whether you enjoy running them out of the box, building kits, scratchbuilding, or all three is up to each person and how they want to spend their leisure time.

One of things not much talked about in this hobby is managing compromises, but none of us faithfully models a real railroad line - we don't have the time or the space. Even a small 5 mile line would require 165 feet in n scale.

I have a New York Central Flyer set (plus some extra stuff) from Lionel that I plan to put under my 'scale' layout and I will run both of them.

Enjoy
Paul