Lionel 8500

[RockIsland52]

Can you guys help me out?  I have a freight starter set I bought for my son about 19 or 20 years ago which is now scattered all over my train storage closet, and I don't know the set's exact year or what goes with what.  Needless to say, the purchase had two purposes.  The first was to spread the disease to my male offspring.  The second was to preserve my good postwar stuff.  The former was unsuccessful but the latter was successful.

The black engine is a steamer 2-4-0 with front metal handrails.  The tender has a mechanical chuffer.  The engine is marked 8500, no smoke, no headlamp.  Plastic bodied with an open frame motor, plastic gears, no e-unit, and a 6 window cab (3X2 sides).

Anyone know the set name and number, and what came with the engine and tender?  The cars I might be able to assemble back into a set as they are all very lightweight and plastic all around versus my good stuff.  I don't think I've seen a transformer kicking around that might have rounded out the set either.

Thanks, guys.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Jack

    

[sir james I]

The 8500,2-4-0 is from 1975 and 76,if no one comes up  with an answer for you tonite I will look through my 75/76 catalogs tomorrow.

[choochin3]

RI,

The only set I can find with the 8500 loco is the Thunderball Freight set from 1975.

The set number is 1581,and came with a Pennsylvania tender.

The other cars in the set were,9062 Penn central Caboose,9020 Union Pacific Flatcar,9032 Southern Pacific Gondola,and a 9011 Great Northern Hopper.

Also included are 8 pieces of O27 curve,and 2 pieces of straight track.

I don't know the transformer number,but my guess would be one of the blue 4150 units.

The tender must have been switched at one time.

 

Carl T.

[RockIsland52]

Guys.....I really appreciate the help.  I'm going to dig out the pieces tomorrow and box/store them together.

I gave the set to my son for Christmas 1989, I think.  The set could have been from 1975-1976 as you suggest.  When I moved from Illinois to Massachussetts in 1988, my father asked me to take all of the packed up trains out of his basement and take them with me.  He would buy sets after the layout was retired, and I have still have 2 HO sets unopened from that era as well.

I'll bet when I decided to resurrect the Christmas layout tradition in my new MA. home, I came across the unopened O27 set packed away with my postwar stuff and gave it to him.  He was 10 at the time.

Jack

[Chris F]

Jack, my TM Books source agrees with Carl's information, but also includes a couple of variations:

9045 Toys R Us Boxcar instead of 9011 Great Northern hopper in special Toys R Us set (also numbered 1581)

9172 PC caboose instead of 9062 PC caboose in 1976 set

[RockIsland52]

RI,

The only set I can find with the 8500 loco is the Thunderball Freight set from 1975.

The set number is 1581, and came with a Pennsylvania tender (Black)

The other cars in the set were,

#9062 Penn central Caboose (Green),

#9020 Union Pacific Flatcar (yellow),

#9032 Southern Pacific Gondola (red), and a

#9011 Great Northern Hopper (sky blue).

Also included are 8 pieces of O27 curve,and 2 pieces of straight track.

I don't know the transformer number,but my guess would be one of the blue 4150 units.

The tender must have been switched at one time.

 

Carl T.

Carl and Chris,

Thank you both for the information re the 1975 set and the 1976 variation(s).

I found all of the pieces last night except for the transformer and instruction manual, though I think I have the instruction manual kicking around somewhere.  I have the 1975 version of the #1581 Thunderball Freight set.  Carl, I have added the freight car colors to your description above for my own use and documentation, as well as anyone else that may be the beneficiaries of your helpful research.

While this is by no means anything more than a starter set, I have run the entire set every Holiday season for the past 19 years along with my Postwar Lionel stuff.  No issues.  No problems.  No shortcomings to report.

Best regards,

Jack

[brianel027]

Jack, the identical loco was also in a Cannonball set which came with a slope back Santa Fe tender. I give Lionel MPC credit for putting money into new shell tooling for inexpensive locos. The 8300/8500 is a nice looking small steamer with plenty of cast-in details that can be highlighed with repainting. The metal handrails up front are also a nice touch for a cheap locomotive.

This loco has the same inner chassis as was in many lesser expensive steamers. I've had mixed pulling results with them. I have an 8209 Dockside which is an amazing puller (with inner no alterations) and an 8602, which also pulls well though many changes have been made to that one.

The 8300/8500 is a pretty light weight loco with the reverse lever inside under the cab roof. I happened to have a couple extra steam loco motor chassis assemblies with DC motors, so I replaced the motor in my 8500 with one of those. I run my layout on DC current, so there was no need for a circuit board and more room for added weight. I installed a headlight inside the plastic housing, added additional details, repainted - highlighting the smoke box, boiler and some of the details like the cast in handrails and bell.

I also made modifications to the Mechanical Sound tender, including lowering the mounting holes for the round sound cylinder so it makes better contact. I also replaced the worn rubber band with a thin foam strip so it makes good contact. I remounted the trucks with truss screws and lock nuts and added a little weight to assist with mechanical sound.

There's not much room in this loco for a puffing Lionel smoke unit, nor for a modern motor blown smoke unit - at least not that I've found. A Model Power or Seuthe chimney/pipe style smoke unit would fit, but some insulation would need to be placed in the inside of the smoke stack.

I don't know if you want to makes changes to your loco Jack, but with a little effort, this cheap loco can run like a champ and look far more costly than it is.

[RockIsland52]

Hi Brianel, 

As always, your observations are quite useful to folks like me with a far more limited exposure to the hobby's vast number of offerings, variations, and potential modifications.  When I started reading your post, I had to go get my 8500 loco and tender to see what you were talking about.

First, duh!  There is indeed a reverse switch inside the cab as you pointed out, with the unit canted upward at a 45 degree angle  Never bothered with the reverse function when I introduced this set to my son two decades ago, too busy rerailing and teaching him there were more than two speeds, off and wreck modes.  After that, I would use the set as a constantly running Christmas display while company was over, pulling out my old postwar stuff when the crowd got into it. 

I do not have the slope-backed mechanical tender, mine is the Pennsylvavia square-backed one.....so this helps confirm I have the Thunderball set, not the Cannonball set.  The mechanical chuffer has always worked well.  Correct storage and maintenance have helped.  I suspect the chuff drive slippage you noted will one day put me in the "now what?" mode, but I'll be better prepared for that.

Re the light engine's light weight, I gave up using the engine with my 2046 LionelLines tender, particularly if I wanted to add a heavier postwar freight car or two to the consist.  I'll have to pull the body off the frame/motor to see if there is any room for a little more tractive weight.  Though my first inclination might be to save the engine for what it is and use my other stuff when I want to add cars. 

As you pointed out, the plastic loco body retains it's brand new look.  And the detail is fairly interesting on the top side of the loco, exaggerated a bit.  The metal drivers (correct term?) have retained their new unweathered look as well.

One of these days I might be tempted to do some legwork and see if my postwar freight car collection has some "set" rhyme or reason to it.  As a kid, I paid no attention to what came with what.  It might be easier to start with the locos and then determine what sets contained them, and then what cars. 

I have no printed reference material like Greenberg.  I have a 1615 0-4-0 switcher and a 2046 3 window 4-6-4 Hudson from 1950-1951 with the 2046W streamlined tender.  That will be my starting point.  If I get lucky, someone will jump in and tell me what freight sets had these engines and what the consist "consisted" of.  Should start another thread.

Thanks again,

Jack

[RockIsland52]

I have not been consistent with the "grease" I use on my metal loco gears.  Used to use the Lionel brand, then petroleum jelly, finally switched to white lithium. Hmmmmm.  What do you guys use?

Looking at the 8500, it has plastic gears.....are the plastic gears certain trains use "allergic" to certain lubricants?

Jack

[choochin3]

RI52,

I have been using the Lionel grease for all my locomotives for many years.

It works just fine,and hasn't harmed any plastic gears.

I use the newer tubes of it,80's-90's,and can usually buy them for .50 each.

 I do use Labelle oil for the bearings though,#106,or #107 I can't remember.

Carl T.

[phrankenstign]

I know this thread is very old.  However I may have stumbled onto some "new" information about the set.

I found the following description and pictures in an ad on Craig's List:

1975 lionel train set
Pennsylvania rr
1 locomotive
1 tender
3 cars
1 caboose
1 transformer
original papers (not in good shape)
various signs
incomplete track
$40.00
it my set since i was a kid dont play with this stuff anymore. need to be cleaned up and slight repair .

Rick

 

The seller doesn't appear to be any kind of expert, but it appears he never added any Lionel products to his lone set.  That makes me think the red transformer is the original one packaged with his set---NOT the blue #4150 transformer suggested.

 

I found a very similar looking transformer elsewhere on the web described as:

Lionel Red 4050 AC Train Transformer 7.5 VA 120V 60HZ, Lionel, Train, Electronic, Vintage, Transformer, Vintage Toy, Electric,Trainmaster

 

Hey!  All of the rolling stock in this set appears to fall under the Cheap Classics umbrella!!!

[rtraincollector]

It was common for Lionel to temporary replace another transformer if they where out or even sometimes the person loading that piece just grab what they had there and grab wrong

[phrankenstign]

rtraincollector

It was common for Lionel to temporary replace another transformer if they where out or even sometimes the person loading that piece just grab what they had there and grab wrong

 

That may be true, but there's no reason to assume Lionel didn't routinely pack a red #4050 transformer with sets like Rick's.  The assumption the set came with a blue #4150 transformer was just a guess made by Carl T.  I think his guess was close (since the transformers are very similar), but it was wrong.  The pics of Rick's set certainly agree with Carl T.'s listing of set #1581's known contents.

[rtraincollector]

look at this listing on the bay right now. So and I have heard of this too ( more I think about it ) that some where thru the production they change a car or a transformer in this case so both could be true 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-LIONEL-THUNDERBALL-FREIGHT-SET-6-1581-Rare-Toys-R-Us-edition-For-Repair-/262429177155?hash=item3d19ff7543:g:u-8AAOSwJQdW~Xzt

 

[phrankenstign]

I looked at that set, and it appears to be the alternative version Chris F. mentioned.  It has the Toys 'R' Us boxcar in place of the Great Northern hopper.  Rather than create a new box for it, Lionel just put a sticker with a picture of the Toys 'R' Us boxcar over the picture on the box where the Great Northern hopper was.

I'll bet that version was exclusively sold at Toys 'R' Us.  That store has continually made deals with manufacturers to produce variations of regular products to be sold exclusively at their stores.

 

There is another Thunderball Freight set currently up for auction here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Lionel-Thunderball-Freight-/322087988221?hash=item4afdf0abfd:g:RYMAAOSwUuFW0v~I

It comes with a BLACK transformer, and appears to be #4851.

 

I found another #4851 for sale, and it had closeup pics:

 

It looks like the base bottom has the specifications for various transformer versions: 4850, 4851, and 4060.

[rtraincollector]

I think they may have just grabbed what they felt like for transformers back then other than like the coke set as they wanted Red for that.