Lionel 027 "Switches"

[Anonymous]

I am having a problem with the Lionel 027 switches on the layout I am constructing. Each time a train passes over a switch, there is a momentary loss of power causing the train to briefly studder while the train's headlight flickers. It doesn't seem to matter whether the train is passing over a remote switch or a manual switch (or a new swtich or an old switch for that matter - although I might add that the newer switches appear to be more problematic than the older ones) or whether its my post war Lionel 4-4-2 (which, having been just dug out of storage, is in need of some cleaning), or a brand new Lionel Hudson locomotive.

When running the older locomotive, the reversing action must be turned off as the "short" is significant enough to send the train in the other direction, at which point it studders again on the same spot on the switch, etc., etc., until the train is stopped and making that wonderful buzzing noise. With the newer train, its not quite as bad, but it does interupt the Rail Sounds and prohibits the operation of the train at a nice slow speed.

Does anyone have any advice on what may be the problem and/or how it might be remedied? Am I missing something in hooking the switches/track up? Thanks in advance.

[lionelsoni]

Don't assume that it's a short circuit; it may be an open. This is likely with the Atlantic. Sie whether cleaning the pickups and verifying that they make good contact with the center rail helps. If the rollers have been oiled in the past, that could be the problem. The reason that you would have more trouble on the switch compared to ordinary track is that the center rail is not continuous through the switch; so you are dependent on both pickup rollers' working, with at least one in contact with a hot rail all the time.

As for the Hudson, if this is a 773 clone, you may be having the problem that I am trying to cure right now. My 773's blind middle drivers want to touch the switch's fat center rail when on the diverging path. This indeed causes a momentary short circuit. The causes are that the very large drivers make the wheelbase quite long, there is much end-play in the axles, and the blind drivers' wide treads do not have the beveled inside edges often seen on other locomotives. The locomotive was never meant to run on O27 track, but I am trying to persuade it to by shimming the wheels. Wish me luck in getting the wheels back on straight.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Bob, I'll do some more checking to see what the problem is. At least its comforting to know it may not be me! I did notice that when the Hudson hits one of the switches on the layout, it is the pickups on the tender that spark on the large center portion of the switch. I think its caused by the fact that the pickups come off the center rail as the tender moves onto the switch and then hit the large center portion of the switch at a slight angle. Consequently, ther eis a little bump and uneven contact. However, if I'm correct, these pickups just allow RS to operate, so that still wouldn't necessarily explain why the engine would act as though there is a short. If you think of anything else, le tme know and good luck with shimming those wheels. You are more brave than I.

[brianel027]

Switches seem to be the most problematic part of anyone's layout. There have been lots of posts over the years of how this engine won't run though this switch while another one will. That said, some switches are better than others.

I have altered my 027 switches big time... I cut the base down to just the footprint size of the track itself. This means removing the underside metal plate and also soldering feeder wires to the underside of the switch since I've removed the metal base.
BUT I've also shortened the frog rail or the center rail assembly that's on top of the swivel rail. I can't say as I don't once in a while have a problem, BUT I have far far less problems now than I did before. And I'll note that most of my locos are of the lesser expensive variety. I have several of those all-plastic Industrial Switcher engines that are noted for stalling on switches. Of course, I've heavily altered my Industrial Switcher engines too. But now they run just fine over my 027 turnouts.

Keeping engine wheels clean is important as is regular cleaning of the track - especially switches. I find this helps too.

[jkerklo]

An AC ampere meter (say 10 amps or so) in the train power line leading to the switch can be used to determine if the problem is an "open" or "short." If the needle (analog is best for this) drops towards zero, it is an open; if it goes over to the pin then it is a short.
Can help to direct looking in the right place.

It can also help to put the engine in neutral and push it slowly over the switch. Where the
wheels start turning is where the problem is.


A possiblity may not have anything to do with the switch. If there happens to be a transition of center-rail power at the switch, the roller pickups will bridge the two transformer circuits, causing a "short" of the difference of the voltage settings. A particular problem if the two circuits are out of phase.

I have also noticed a problem internal to the switch (with old O27 switches). There is a rivet that holds the center-rail pickup in place. This rivet can short (underneath) when the weight of the train or pickup is applied. With a way to detect a short in place, push on the center rail piece or the rivet. A similar problem can occur with the bar that moves the frog. Unfortunately, the switch bottom has to be removed to verify and/or fix these problems.

I have never seen one, but a loose or frayed wire underneath could also be at fault.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[Anonymous]

Thanks to all who replied for all the advice. I'm still working on the problem and have, at the moment, one, relatively new manual switch that consistently gives me problems. Perhaps my plans to replace it just got expedited. DOes anyone have an opinion as to whether Lionel or K-Line 027 switches are better?

[spankybird]

Hi Jeff,
I have replaced all my Lionel swtches (all but two) with K-Line low profile. Here are some of the reason that I like them.
1. The low profile allows longer cars and engines to pass over them.

2. The do not have the buzzing sound when a car sits on them.

3. They can run on fix power, not just track power ( I run mine at 14 voltrs) If you run DCS or TMCC at 18 volts, the switch may bang when switch. If you don't and are at low track voltage, the switch may not completely switch.

4. Both the switch and controller have lights.

you can look at them by clicking on my web icon.

[jsonova99]

I have the same problem with manual 027 switches, except what is happening on mine is that the collectors are shorting against the black switch piece (pardon my terminology)  The piece looks like it was originally anodized, however my engines have worn it down to metal.  I also have the tell tale marks of hard shorts on some of my collector arms that look like arc welds.  The other problem that I have with 027 switches is with post war operating cars, the pickups hit the main switch section and derail, so I can't use anything like old milk cars, cattle cars, coal cars, etc.  Very frustrating.  I do agree that some switches are worse than others.  Although the operating car issue happens on all four 027 switches that I have.

I mainly use fast track now, and have had no issues with any engine or car with those switches.

[TrainLarry]

  Try running a lighted car alone over the switches in question, and see what happens. If the lights go out at a certain place every time, you have a switch problem. If the lights stay on, then you may have a problem peculiar to your locomotive construction. Then again, it may be the weight of the locomotive causing the intermittent condition.

  I am now currently in the process of repairing 3 Post-War and 1 Modern era '027" switches that have failed in the same way. The center rails went dead on a portion of each switch. As has been stated above, a feeder wire must be added inside the switch to overcome the dead spots.

jsonova 99 -You have switches with black swivel rails. I do not know if the issue of 'rocking' swivel rails pertains only to those Modern Era switches made with the black swivel rail only, or others also. I have 2 of these, and the cure is replacement of the bushing under the rivet. A quick cure is a split washer around the rivet.

Larry

 

[smokymtguy]

I also have 027 switch problems running steam.  The pick up rollers will short out going through the curved side of switch on the black slider part of the switch.  Also the back side of some of the steam driver wheels will have contact with the fatter part of the center rail through the curved side.  I have placed a small piece of black electrial tape over the black slider.  Place the tape over the side that goes up against the curved stock rail, I cover the entire slide from one end to the other.  This will insulate the third rail pick up roller form shorting out on the curved slider.  Make sure the slider is clean from grease or tape will not stay.  I then take black nail polish and paint the side of the flat center rail between the center and outside rails, this insulates the side of the center rail from the back sides of the driver wheels from rubbing against the center rail.  Both fixes have lasted quit some time, and easy to replace when shorting or sparking start again.

[Wyandotte]

brianel, Agent 027,

I wonder if you have any pictures you could post showing your alterations.

Thanks,

Miles

[servoguy]

I think you guys will find that the Lionel 1121 switches work better than the 1122 or later switches.  Probably the Marx metal switches are the best of all.

[alank]

      While all the 0-27 switches I have are of the post-war error, I have recollection of only having the type of problem you speak of once.   The engine would hit 1 switch on my layout, and reverse direction.   Replaced the switch, and still had the problem.   The trouble with this locomotive and the switch was 2 fold.   The alignment coming to the switch was uneven, and the locomotive it happened with had a e-unit that the lever was a little loose.    I  shimmed up the lever, and the problem went away.   Over the years I have gravitated to 1122E and the manual switch that went with them.    I have only had one failure due to a coil, minimal other problems.    I have found in building a layout, it is best to have a power source on both sides of the switch, or switches if they are one to another.   The reason there, I have found it the center rail pin.   A few I have, developed  rust on the pin where inserted into the switch, but overall I have had good luck with my 0-27 switches.   I retireded my 1121, and others, just to give my layout some uniformity.    As for locomotive, I have run many of the 0-27, including a 1615 that you would think might have problems, and have also run my 726, F-units and other diesels too.   Even my #50 is ok if I have enough speed going thru the switch.   

                                                                                                                       Good Luck,

[servoguy]

022 switches forever.