Did Williams make a mistake?

[mpzpw3]

I have been looking at discount pricing for the williams postwar style Santa Fe F-3s, and have noticed something strange. For the Santa-Fe F-3 A-A, with B unit, the price is around $400.00. For the K-line A-B-A, the price is $425.00, with railsounds, tmcc, and realistic detailing. I believe most williams engines to be a super value, but I have to wonder about this one. I realize that nostalgia plays an important part in this hobby, but as far as bang for the buck goes, It does leave one wondering.

[Big_Boy_4005]

I haven't looked and comparison shopped these engines, but I will. It's possible that Williams may have more than one powered unit in this set of engines, also the motor size may account for some of it, but all things being equal, it does sound odd.

[brianel027]

I don't know if this is a mistake as much as it is the marketing from 2 completely different companies with different priorities. The list on the K-Line ATSF F-3 A-B-A is $600, so the price you have is good... nearly 1/3 off. There have been some dramatic discounts listed in the train mags on product from K-Line and others. Obviously, the stuff isn't selling as well as was hoped for. The discounts and blowouts wouldn't be there if the stuff was selling.

Williams is now just tooling up and putting out their F-3. Maybe the price will come down eventually. But there is most certainly a segment of the train buying public that does NOT want the electronic extras. There have been more than enough defective product stories in recent years, K-Line included. Granted, K-Line fares better than Lionel or MTH in this department, but I've read posts on DOA K-Line product too. Williams is the one company that you very seldom read these stories about. There was one here on this forum recently, but I can't recall seeing another in a long time.

The other thing to consider is that the other companies put out more product than Williams does. More and more new product means design, engineering, start up and tooling costs. The other companies also have bigger selections of existing tooling and dies for other product. The other companies can selectively price their product (ie: raise prices) on older established product to help cover the costs of the new product. All this new tooling isn't cheap (although is it less overseas) and start up costs are probably not being recooperated on the initial runs. So they raise prices on other product. The K-Line coil cars were $35.95 four years ago. Now they're $44.95. The scale cabooses were $49.95... now they're $64.95. MTH has raised prices too. Lionel's have always been high.

The F-3 from Williams may not be a bargain yet. But many of Williams other offerings are bargains when compared to other similar product. Not to mention the proven track record of reliability on Williams product, which just may be unequaled in the 3-rail train business. For those who want the latest electronic frills, there's no shortage of product available. And it's great that it's available for those who like it. For the rest of us, there's Williams.

Also consider the hidden extra costs of the long distance, phone calls, swearing, headaches, down-time and shipping charges when the electronic features loaded engine has to go back for repairs - which seems to happen far more frequently than many would like.
And is it still a "repair" if the item never worked in the first place straight out of the box?
Sometimes you pay a little more for what seems to be a little less - and still wind up way ahead in the long run.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Thank you for the white space Brian! It is even more of a pleasure to read your response now.

So part of the price difference Mpzpw3 is seeing is discounting of K-lines trains by the dealer vs. Williams regular low price, since K-line's list price is actually 30% higher than the price he saw. It sounds like the dealer really wants to move those trains, at any cost, and is willing to let them go for a very small markup to get it done.

[Anonymous]

For some reason Western Depot varies the price of those K-Line F-7 ABA units according to road name. The Western Pacific F-7 ABA is only $450, and prices vary all the way up to the MILW F-7 ABA for $599.

Truthfully, the Western Depot $99 K-Line Alco FM AA units look great pulling my boy’s MTH 0-27 coaches. Those little FM units are right length and the right height. The black-red-yellow ATSF strip along the bottom of the engine lines up with the strip on the coaches when only the A unit is pulling. It looks great!

Richard

[Bob Keller]

I think Williams is targeting operators who want something basically the same as the postwar model, but NEW and made with modern production techniques, modern graphics, and can-style motors.

I'm certainly interested in seeting what the F3s look like, and I believe we will have a Williams Canadian Pacific set on hand for review in the next week or so.

[dougdagrump]

K-Line did have some FANTASTIC pricing during their Fall Fair Event, unfortunately when I finally decided to make the jump into TMCC they were all gone. Seems like the B&O Mikados were very popular. Considered going with a Williams Berkshire and having it upgraded by TA but after MANY hours on the internet I finally found my original choice at a reasonable price. If TA hadn't had the backlog of upgrades I still might have opted for the Berkshire. Williams still seems to have tremendous pricing especially if you don't mind searching the net.

[Anonymous]

According to the March issue of Classic Toy Trains (page 20), the other “W” engine builder, Weaver has TMCC as an option. Maybe the new Williams F-3 includes TMCC?

Richrad

[brianel027]

Nope Richard, and thank goodness too. Williams isn't using any of the electronic wizzardry... just the bare-bones basics. But with that you get peace of mind and a reliable running engine that chances are will not be making a return trip to the service department.

Some have complained they wish Williams would include TMCC. To that I say Williams is the only company that seems to recognize there IS a market for engines without this stuff. If someone wants engines with electronics, all you need to do is look at absolutely everyone else because they ALL offer it. Lionel and K-Line offer a couple of token low-end engines without the control and that's it.

Lionel: TMCC
K-Line: TMCC
Atlas: TMCC
Weaver: TMCC
3rd Rail: TMCC
MTH: DCS
Williams: basic reliability

Williams is on to something and I hope they leave well enough alone and proceed as they have been. We folks who don't want electronics have NO other choice but Williams. the score is 6 to one. Isn't there enough chice for the control guys? We conventional control guys only have ONE choice, other than used stuff. I've been wishing for years MTH would offer the smaller Railking engines under the Rugged Rails banner with nothing but the motors and reverse board. But this isn't likely. Even Railking has gone scale.

Richard this isn't a hit on what you said. But the topic of Williams and TMCC has come up before. Obviously it's William's decision on what they do. But with the score at 6 to 1, it's nice we conventional guys still have someone we can buy reasonable priced quality new trains from. Unless Lionel decides to sell the all plastic single motored R3-3 at the $40 list it's really worth. Which isn't likely either.

[mpzpw3]

Glad to get some well thought out responses! I have three Williams engines, a railsounds Lionel steam engine, and a MTH proto-sounds 1 engine. The Williams engines are my favorites to run, so please don't think that I am dishing on Williams. Williams makes a great product! I was anxiously awaiting the release of the Williams F-3s, when it was still basiclly a rumor that they were being made. At the time I was assuming that they would be priced in the same catagory as the F-7s or alco's. When the engines were actually catalogued, I was suprised to see, what appears to be a $100.00 more than comparable units. It should also be noted that I was comparing discount prices on both the Williams and the K-line units, from the same advertiser. I was not using Williams full retail prices, nor K-lines.
When I wrote the original topic, I was comparing the details of my postwar Santa-Fe F-3s, to my MTH F-3s, to the K-line F-3s. Electronics aside for the moment, I have to admit that the tooling and detailing is much better on the K-line unit (I love my postwar F-3s, and would never get rid of them). I am just comparing the level of detail, and don't see the Williams engines (If they are close reproductions of postwar Lionels) as having much more detail than the F-7s or Alcos, Williams has already produced, for less money.
My real question, I guess, is this engine marketed for the nostalgia market, or is the price mainly higher due to the cost of making a new product? I completely understand wanting to have something that duplicates the original (especially with quiet, smooth-running can motors), or wanting something in a specific scheme (Santa Fe blue and yellow frieght paint on Williams F-3s, obviously just an example, heh, heh!!), but looking strictly at "bang for the buck", I really just don't know.

[lionelsoni]

One option for us Luddites is to buy the high-tech locomotive, pull out the computer, and put in an e-unit. I have even found that I can resell the extracted electronics.

[Anonymous]

Brian,

There have been quite a few changes in the new 2004 Lionel Catalog, especially in the way that Lionel engines are equipped. For example, the new Lionel 0-27 Berkshire steam engine is available with (1) transformer control and Air Whistle, (2) transformer control and Rail Sounds, or (3) transformer control, TMCC, and Rail Sounds.

There is also a slew of transformer (only) engines in the 2004 Catalog. The usual RS-3 diesel and 4-4-2 Steam Loco. The Southern GP-30. The 0-27 4-6-2 Pacific Steam Engine. The Western Maryland GP-7. The new 0-6-0 Dockside Steam Engine. The Western Pacific U36B. The Duluth GP-38. The Burlington F-7 . Also, a few small Speeders, Switchers, Inspection Vehicles, and snow removal train, etc.

I probably missed a few conventional engines?

We already have the 2003 Lionel 0-27 Pacific with TMCC, and like it so much that I’ll probably order the new 2004 0-27 Nickel Plate Road Berkshire with TMCC. By the way, Western Depot still has a few MTH Nickel Plate Road 0-27 heavy coaches. That new Lionel Berkshire is also available in a Williams type bare bones configuration.

Richard

[Anonymous]

Correction:

I just got this 2004 Lionel Catalog today, and it will take a while for it to sink-in. The new Lionel 0-27 Berkshire with TMCC is Southern Pacific, and the whole train set must be purchased. The Nickel Plate Road 0-27 Berkshire is also in a train set, but it only has the Rail Sounds. (synchronized chuffing, crew announcements, brake squeal, steam whistle and bell)

There are 2 ea 0-27 Berkshires listed separately for $229.99, and they are New York Central and Great Western. Both are conventional transformer with Rail Sounds.

Richard