uncataloged trains

[Anonymous]

Hi everyone,
I just won an engine off of ebay and it said uncataloged. Does this mean it is more valueable than other cars or it doesn't change the value.

Thanks
steve

[Big_Boy_4005]

Ususally the term uncataloged implies that and item is more valuable, but not always. Value is always based on the demand for the item, and the supply of that item. Often people think that uncataloged items are rare and are willing to pay more for them. The best way to know the relative value of a particular piece is to check a price guide such as Greenberg's. Beware of claims made on eBay, and do your homework before bidding, some items purchased in auctions are not always bargains, so be careful.

[brianel027]

Yeah, I'll second that one Big-Boy! Sometimes it's a hoot! Once I was looking on ebay at Lionel Penn Central cars: there was one that read "VERY RARE! Lionel 9716 Penn Central Box Car." That might have been so (in that particular seller's mind) had it not been followed by 6 more of the same box car for sale at the same exact time!

Must have been a ru***hat week on selling those very rare 9716's!

And now for a play... keep in mind the following was not nominated for a TONY but is unfortunately based on some truth...

SCENE ONE: TRAIN SHOW
Buyer: Wow, $50 for that box car?
Seller: Yep, that's a very rare car, Uncataloged too!
Buyer: That's car is overpriced. Besides it's pretty common and it is cataloged.
Seller: I looked in the 1966 Lionel catalog and it wasn't in there.
Buyer: But this car wasn't made until 1975!
Seller: See, I told you... uncataloged. Here, give me the car I need to raise the price on it...
Buyer: What!?
Seller: Sure! This is a rare Lionel box car made in 1975 that wasn't cataloged in 1966!
(Entire cast enters for show-stopping musical finale "There's no business like used train business").

Well folks, looks like I'm on my way to Broadway. This could be a big money maker for me.
Wow! I'll finally be able to afford one of those mint postwar cars wrapped in cellophane. Gee, what's the price of a Broadway theatre ticket up to these days? At least as much as a rare 1966 uncataloged 1975 box car! [:D]

Stay tuned for my next play [^] "This mint Lionel set actually came like this in a soda box."

[Big_Boy_4005]

Very good Brian, that's a hoot![(-D][(-D][(-D][bow]

Then there's the word RARE. You wouldn't believe some of the JUNK I've seen on eBay that used that word in the title. I like my meat cooked rare, I prefer my trains "well done".

Steve, please don't think that we are teasing or making fun of you in any way, as that isn't our intention at all. If you are happy with your purchase, that's what's important. If you want to know if you got a bargain, tell us the number of the piece (you don't need to say what you paid), and I'm sure that Brian or I or someone else can give you a pretty good idea of the value.

The bottom line is CAVEAT EMPTOR, buyer beware, when buying trains, especially on eBay. The best way to do that, is to do your homework, and know what you are buying.

[Anonymous]

Hey guys,
Thanks for the show, when its on broadway, i'll take 2 tickets!!! I don't think you are making fun of anything-- just trying to help me understand.

Well heres the story. A co-worker of mine gave me about 20 older boxcars, i think they call them billboard cars--like good and plenty. Well he didn't give me an engine to go with these. I didn't want to spend a lot of money. The engine i finally won was a k-line 1994---has pepsi written on the side. It is an MP15. I paid 65.00 for it. I just thought it would go with the other cars, not that i would hurry up and sell it. I hope that wasn't too much to pay for it.

I knew i could find some information here. Please-- any more wisdom would be greatly helpful. thanks. OH, keep those musicals coming!!!

Steve


My supervisor told me about the evil of ebay!

[brianel027]

Hi Steve, yes, as big_boy wisely noted, and you gladly figured out - I was havin' some FUN back a couple of posts. As with any hobby (or anything really) there's always someone out there who will use the time-tested technique of "dishonesty" to make a sale. Sometimes it's out of ignorance,and other times it's a little less forgivable.

The diesel you bought I suspect is one of the K-Line MP-15 diesels that was custom made for the mail order house Train Express. There were at least a couple of sets made for them along with a few separate sale cars. No, $65 sounds reasonable. You might have done a little better, but the price you paid is right there in the ballpark. You have an engine with die-cast trucks, two motors and a sheet metal frame. On a comparison level, there's not much Lionel makes with the same features that you'll find in that price range. Take note Steve, the K-Line engines (and similar Lionel ones too) that have DC can motors can really run fast if you give 'em a lot of power. I don't know what kind of transformer you have, but the Lionel 1033 (with the B-U setting: 0-11volts) is the best Lionel one to use with your engine. The bare bones K-Line starter set transformer for it's lack of features, also starts at a 0 voltage setting with smooth graduation. The MRC transformers will also work well with your engine. Any of the older Lionel transformers that start at 6-8 volts (and many of them do) will make your engine fly like a rocket.

I've been running K-Line engines like yours for going on 13 years. Given what it is on a detail and price level, they are darn fine basic running engines.
Whether your engine becomes "valuable" I tend to think not. The die-hard Lionel collectors (my Uncle is one) pass by K-Line. Believe me, I've been hearing that K-Line is junk from my Uncle for years... he doesn't mean "operating"... he means "investment."
There are a few uncataloged K-Line items that seem to attract some interest: the Yuengling Brewery cars, the Conrail Employee Only cars and engines, the TCA New Haven cars, the New Haven Alcos and some of the very early 027 cars that were made in Chapel Hill, N.C. before K-Line went overseas. There are a few uncataloged variations, like the yellow B&O box car (instead of blue) and the uncataloged Reading hoppers (41414, 41439) from the Reading Coal Hauler set. But even all of these can be found for reasonable prices if you keep looking. Folks just don't collect K-Line the way they do Lionel; they operate instead.

Have fun with your loco. Sounds like you made a good choice to go with those reefers.

Well, I gotta run - curtain call! I'm directing a play where a ficticious movie star named Arnold gets elected to be the CEO of a train company. He come up with a system called TCC: Terminator Catastrophy Control. The electronics destroy themselves by the time the customer gets the engine home. It's kind of a futuristic fantasy with riveting dialogue and superb dancing. The musical number with the angry customer and the company service tech is TONY material!! [:D]
Also keep an eye out for TV Guide... the long extended legal battle between 2 train companies finally gets resolved on the next episode of JUDGE JUDY! [:D]
I wi***hat was true... man that would be a hoot!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Sounds like you did just fine. Any time you can pick up a working engine for that price, you cant go too far wrong. I'm not an expert on collector values on K-line, and over the years they have made a lot of different items with brand names on them, so eventually a piece with Pepsi markings could have extra value. In the meantime, enjoy and have fun.

By the way, the cars that you were given may actually refrigerator cars, or reefers. It sounds like they might be Lionel 98XX from the 70's and 80's. Kids love them for their bright colors and recognizable names, and some of those could be valuable depending on the name. I have almost every one of them, and the beer ones are quite sought after.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by brianel027


Also keep an eye out for TV Guide... the long extended legal battle between 2 train companies finally gets resolved on the next episode of JUDGE JUDY! [:D]
I wi***hat was true... man that would be a hoot!

Well, there actually was a court case on TV once that involved toy trains. A while ago on The People's Court a man was suing the guy he bought a McCoy standard gauge boxcab electric from on ebay. The seller claimed in the auction that the engine was an original McCoy prototype, but it was actually just a repaint and even had some parts from other manufacturers on it. The man's defense was that he had said "sold as is", but he was forced to pay back to $1000+ the engine cost and got the engine back. Another example of trains not always being what people claim they are.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Darn, I missed that episode Sask, but it sounds like the judge got it right. It seems like a fair resolution, in a case of misrepresentation bordering on fraud. The problem is not everyone is that lucky.

That is one of the advantages of being a member of TCA. Their rules are very strict in such matters, and transactions between members are usually very honest because of it. The problems can come up when dealing outside the TCA's jurisdiction, and more care needs to be taken to avoid the unscrupulous that lurk out there, waiting to prey on the unwitting.

This actually brings us full circle in this conversatin, because there are really only two ways to know that you aren't getting ripped off. One is to know the seller, which is one of the best aspects to the TCA, and the other is to know your trains and understand what you are buying.

[Anonymous]

Hey guys,
Really enjoyed all the information and fun. I learned a lot. There are a variety of different names on those cars.I like the tootsie roll tank car.

I like lionel, but i enjoy k-line. The first set my wife bought me was the nabisco , from there- i searced for a few months and found the RB circus set in pennsyvania. Next i spent some time looking for the 100th ann. hershey set, that one cost me! But my fav is the lionel santa fe. My father had that set and i loved it. My father ran trains ever since i can remember and i grew to love the hobby. I guess you can say i'm still a virgin, when it comes to trains! HAHA. And i'm 42!
Since you know so much-----( i think!) i also got a car that looks like the animal cracker box, there is no company name on it , don't know if it's lionel or k-line, any information on that one?? Can't wait for a response.
I'll check on the transformer,i bought it seperate from the set.
Oh, another thing i forgot--i can't remember all the sets i have- someone gave me a DR. pepper set, which i found out was made for a train shop in texas. I don't know how i get all these different trains!.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Steve, most of what you described sounds like classic K-line. They are much more likely to produce special sets in limited quantities for people. Maybe some day it will be worth something as a collectable, and more likely to someone interested in the brand names depicted on them, than in the trains themselves.

One item from that list caught my attention though. The Tootsie Roll tank car!!! You have good taste. If that is a Lionel 9324, the number will be right on it, take good care of that. In like new condition, it can fetch $80 from someone who really wants one, and is one of the most valuable regular production tank cars made by Lionel during the modern era (1970 - Present).

Oh yeah, I'm 42 also, but I've been doing this for over 30 years.

[brianel027]

Just to add a different spin here, I'm a big Yoko Ono fan. I'd walk into some New York City record shop and see one of here 45's with the picture sleeve for $30 or one of her albums for $60 and say "Wow, what a deal! I have to have this!" Her solo records were never made in big quantities, so you'd think they'd be pretty collectible, right?. BUT there aren't that many big fans of her stuff either. Sometimes I'd go to a yard sale and see one of her albums and they'd say "Give me 25¢ and get that thing out of here!"

The whole thing with ANY supposed collectible is MARKET demand! The reason I feel the postwar Lionel trains are so desired is that so many people had them: They have a frame of reference to them. They played with them, didn't always take care of them, and sometimes the trains were broken. Folks are now buying back their childhood memories and want those memories in the best condition they can afford. This of course raises prices.

Today I notice so many products come labeled "collectible" and "limited edition." But this is the manufacturer speaking, NOT the MARKET. This is a SALES gimmick, not DEMAND. There's another post on the topic of Lionel production numbers. Sure those numbers are probably much lower than they once were. But we now have 3-rail trains from Atlas, Williams, Sunset (3rd Rail), Industrial Rail (UMD), K-Line, and MTH. I'm sure if you take the sum totals of all these manufacturers together into consideration, the numbers of trains today could be close to postwar numbers. Of course, it must also be considered that the numbers of people buying trains is probably down - or at least the numbers who will pay anything for a particular train. There's just too much available at a time when the economy is not as good as some politicians like to say it is.

Another thing to consider... take the very first Neil Young inspired Vapor Records box car. Supposedly there's only 1,000-1,200 of those cars made. You'd think they'd be very hard to find. But they're not. And after the dealer greed settled down, the prices on those have gone down too! Ebay has definetely changed the collector market. Unusual, rare, and limited items are now easier to find and buy than ever. And though premium prices are still being paid, overall I'd say prices are DOWN on many items from just a decade ago. People ask me what something is worth and I say forget the price guide book, go look at ebay!

On the topic of K-Line... K-Line trains have never been really thought of as collectibles (yet). Much of what's been made have been rehashes of more pricey postwar Lionel items. Which makes it possible for budget modelers to run a B&O Timesaver box car. But the collectors still want the REAL THING. K-Line has made many limited runs of all kinds of stuff. The funny thing is much of this stuff is still available. There was this Magma-Arizona (spelling?) set with a MP-15, ore cars and work caboose. It was a limited set, yet I see even years after it was made, there are still some available.
No doubt some of the more "traditionally" sized trains have now taken a back seat to the lateest offerings of scale sized and scale detailed trains with the newest electronic features. No doubt that this has also contributed to a softening of prices on some of the less-than-scale trains out there. BUT even all these scale offerings are seen at some dramatic price reductions. No doubt K-Line's recent promotions are a good advertising technique. But I sincerely doubt they'd be giving away for FREE expensive scale engines if they were selling as well as they would like them to be.

The other thing that has changed is that people have been buying trains and keeping them sealed in the box hoping to one day cash in. No doubt sales in the past have been good due to folks buying 2 or 3 or everything they purchase. It would be better for the market and the industry as a whole if these same numbers of trains ended up in the hands of a larger number of people. Again, the "frame of reference." People aren't going to collect something if they don't know what it is.
The "magic" of Lionel trains comes from seeing them run and operate, NOT from sitting in a box on a shelf or in a storage room. As the numbers of people who experience the "magic" of running Lionel trains declines, it is inevitable that the demand and prices for these trains will also decline. That's already happening.

Well, a little off the point of uncataloged trains. But this is my perspective. Which is why I run trains for fun. From a collector standpoint, I've repainted and altered my trains SO MUCH that they are probably worthless. Even the ones I made that were totally intended to be production prototypes for K-Line... the market isn't interested in new less-than-scale items.
BUT to me, they are priceless! And that's what matters.

[Anonymous]

Hey everybody,
I get your point, i buy trains because i like them, not because i think i can get $1000 for them. Like the RB circus set, i thought i really looked great and i always liked the circus when i was a kid. So i started looking for it.
Oh, about this 'rare' thing, i saw on ebay a gerber baby food car, i wanted to have because i have a 3 year girl, which really LOVES trains, and it stated that it was rare, but right after that, i saw 3 more "rare" cars.
So, this car i have, a red animal cracker boxcar, which looks like it is hand painted with animals in cages, is a k-line? I've been to a lot of train shows and gardens and never saw one of those before.
A few years ago, i set up my first platform, it wasn't much, but i felt proud and i enjoyed all the reactions i got.
I am really enjoying reading your responses and i am learning a lot . If i have any other train questions i'll let you know.

thanks

[Big_Boy_4005]

Steve, you're a fast learner. The Gerber should be a Lionel 9877 billboard reefer, I don't think anyone else has made one. The car is not rare, though it may not come up for sale very often these days, for the very reason that others like yourself like it. I don't live and die by the book, but I do consult it from time to time. The book says $55 - $65, I wouldn't bid over $35 personally, but that's up to you, at least you're informed now. Did you check the Tootsie Roll?

[Anonymous]

Hey guys
Sorry i took so long, My basement is being used for a junk room and my train stuff is all over . The number on the tootsie roll car is-- 9324. So i got a winner.It looks like it is brand new. Someone kept it well. I also have a wendys caboose, which i have never seen before. nice piece. Just recieved the pepsi engine. Looks brand new and it pulled 10 cars very easy. The person selling the engine included a pepsi caboose which goes with it. Guess i was lucky this time on ebay.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Steve, you did just fine. I checked eBay on the Gerber reefer, and found 3 recent auctions that had all ended. There was one that sold for $37 no box, the others went for $55 or so plus shipping, now I forget, since I looked right after I posted that last week.

The Wendy's caboose is part of what is known as the fast food freight set, though it was never packaged as a set. There was a Burger King engine and 6 billboard reefers.

[brianel027]

Steve, sounds like you did good - and the caboose to boot! You've got a nice angle going here for your future train purchases. As Big_Boy mentioned, there is a Lionel Burger King set, which you can find the cars for sale separately. There's the K-Line Pepsi stuff made for Train Express. Both K-Line and Lionel have made Coke trains. And MTH is making McDonald's stuff. One of those Railking McDonald's accessories might be cool for your layout.

Fromn a collector angle, it makes good sense to focus on a particular area. It's impossible to collect everything made. And time consuming to know everything about everything ever made. Some collectors focus on operating cars, some on 6464 box cars, some on a particular engine. This is a good way to do it. Not only do you have the potential of actually one day having everything, but you'll knowledge of this area will increase as time goes on. You're doing good so far. The stuff I mentioned is also attainable and affordable... I mean it always pays to be a smart shopper. But if you're married, your wife will probably appreciate that you're collecting "ground beef" instead of "NY strip steak." [:D]

The main thing is collect what you like, and take care of it. In the past, this was one hobby where you could buy a train set, play with it, maitain it and one day still get more money for it than you originally paid. Whether this remains the trend, who knows.

What is certain is collecting WHAT YOU LIKE will be fun... and that's "The Real Thing!"

[Anonymous]

Hey guys,
Thanks for the good encouragment. Like you said i picked something that i really liked and i enjoy collecting the billboard cars.
Since you mentioned McDonalds, one of the cars i got was a McDonalds boxcar, it is a later car, from 2001 or 2 ,and i think it is a MTH.
Some of the other cars i got was KFC box car, lipton, good and plenty, domino sugar, morton salt, and a boxcar that i found at a train show. I had no idea that there was a boxcar like this. It was a Peanuts-- not the nut ---charlie brown and the gang, don't know the year, but i paid 45 for it. It's a little bit of an older car.
And i am married--- just can't understand why she hasn't divorced me yet!!!!!
TRAINS FOREVER!!!!!!!!
All the cars i mentioned, i got in very good condition, like they were never used.
I enjoy talking with the both of you, i am learning a great deal of train stuff.

There is one more engine i really would love to get. It's the SW2 switcher--- the seaboard.The orange and blue one. My father had one and i really liked it.

Untill next time
Steve

[brianel027]

Steve, your dad probably had the Lionel NW-2 Seaboard switcher. Just for you info, Williams Electric Trains (www.williamstrains.com) also has made a very nice repro of that same engine. Williams may not have the collector value, but it is darn nice product for the money. Of course, you may get lucky and find an original Lionel. I believe Lionel also reissued this loco a few years ago. But I'm certain you would find the Williams engine to be a fine runner. K-Line also made a S-2 diesel Seaboard switcher - it's not the same orange/blue paint scheme as the Lionel - but the K-Line Seaboard S-2 is certainly one of the more difficult S-2's to find.

As far as the wife, there are far worse things you could be doing with your free time and extra money, right? Some of my train buddies do a little domestic compromise by buying trains their wives like... one guy, his wife's dad worked for Ford, so he buys Ford train cars to keep the wife interested. And Labatt's, since that's her favorite beer. Another guy built his wife a little 'N' scale layout right in the kitchen... she loves it. She can run her train while fixing dinner.

I'm sure those ideas were not in the marriage handbook. [^]

[Anonymous]

Hey guys,
Thanks for the heads up about williams trains. I jumped over there after i read your response. Found the seaboard, for 199.00. that's not a bad price, which includes a horn. I can see the wife now!! Another engine!
See ya
steve

[Big_Boy_4005]

Hey Steve, the KFC reefer is one of the ones that goes with the Wendy's caboose, and the Charlie Brown hand car was from the early 90's. If you like Peanuts, look in my profile, there is an interesting photo.

On the topic of wives, I once knew a guy whose wife got so into the trains, she started her own seperate collection. So be careful![:D][:D][:D]