Help with Kids 4 x 8 Layout

[Anonymous]

Hello,

I am building a layout for my kids. I have constructed a 4 x 8 (actually due to space limitations it is 4 x 7'9"). I have a Lionel train for the kids (it is the Southern Set). I have the fastrack for a 39.5" x 90" figure eight that is currently on the carpet.

In looking at the 4 x 8 that I am going to move the layout to, the Fastrack although very nice, will be limited on the 4x8 board. It can't accomidate much more than my existing figure eight.

Thus I am considerting using sectional track. I am considering both O guage and O 27. I have looked at Lionel, Gar Graves and Atlas. I am now very confused.

I would like to make a nice layout for the kids, perhaps a larger 42" x 90" (approximate), outside oval with switches to a smaller 31" x 50" (or so) insidide oval.

This layout will be for the kids (ages 5, 8 and 10) and will run either O27 or Classic size equipment and not the larger Standard size. (I am just learning the lingo, so please pardon any mistakes).

Questions:
1. Am I better off with O27 or O guage?
2. What are the pros and cons of using Lionel track vs. Atlas.
3. Does Gar Graves offer something better or different than Atlas?
4. I was told by one dealer to use Ross switches, why is Ross better or different than all others?

Some details about my proposed set up. As built so far, it has a maple birch plywood top on a frame of 2 x 4's using 2 x 4's as legs. All wood is screwed together and metal truss frames secure all four of the box corners. I will be adding a plexyglass or acrylic side that sticks up 3" above the top on three of the sides to catch any cars that might try to leave the table during the kids operation. I will be using the Z-80 Lionel controller that came with the set.
I am not sure about sound deadening, but am considering either (1) carpeting the top, (2) painting the top green and using cork under the track, (3) Any better ideas?

Thanks for your help,

Steve, confused and in need of help in Illinois

[clinchfieldfan]

I use AtlasO and Gargraves track on my mid-size layout. (appx 20' x 20" J shape) Considering the ages of your children I believe I would stick with the lionel fastrack. When using ross switches your have to buy separate switch controllers, the electrical connections are a little trickier on ross/gargraves track. Atlas O does make a nice selection of switches and track but the cost is more than some of the other systems.

MTH makes the realtrack that is comparable to the lionel fastrack, MTH has rubber "bumper"-type things that fit into the bottom of the track to deaden the noise. If you decide to have a double oval with a crossover I would recommend that you insulate the center rail between the switches so you can run two trains at the same time. Of course you would need a second transformer or one that has dual controls.
Hope this helps, welcome to the forum there are alot of people on here willing to help.

[lionelsoni]

Here are some suggestions:

Put an O27 oval in the middle, with 180 degrees of curved track at each end, and an O34 oval outside it, with short tangents (straight track) at each end. Connect the two ovals with a pair of crossovers at at least one corner. The inner loop will have a diameter to the outside ends of the ties of 27 inches, of course. If you space the long tangents 6.25 inches apart on centers, the outer loop will be 12.5 inches larger, or 39.5 inches, leaving 1.25 inches on each side from ties to table edge, or 2.25 from track center to table edge. This would be fine without the plastic edge and might still be okay if you run short pieces. However, you could safely move the tangents on the side that doesn't involve the crossovers a little closer together and pick up some clearance to the table edges. You could also consider spacing the plastic out a little from the edge or, if the table is not yet built, make it just a couple of inches wider, or even the full 4 feet.

The crossovers in the corner use four model-1122 O27 switches. Ninety degrees of the inner loop's curve would comprise the curved tracks of two switches. Their straight tracks would mate with the curved tracks of switches whose straight tracks would be the ends ot the tangents of the outer loop.

The curves of the outer loop would be Marx O34, which has not been made for years but is still readily available used. (See Ebay, train shows.) Two pieces of this almost exactly fit between the crossover switches in the outer loop. (You need a .6-inch tangent between the O34 pieces to be strictly correct.)

This layout has the advantage that it allows you to run O31 pieces, perhaps a visitor's train, on the outer loop if you want. And, if you add a second pair of crossovers at another corner, you have a passing siding for trains on either loop. You can of course also add switches to the tangents of the inner loop to form sidings in the middle of the layout.

If you haven't yet built the table, consider using PVC pipe for the legs. You can put about a 1/2-inch bolt through the pipe near the end, through a screw-eye in the middle of the pipe. The threaded end of the screw-eye protrudes from the end of the pipe, through your table top, with a washer and nut holding it to the table. When the nut is tightened, the pipe is locked rigidly to the table--it will never work loose. Long legs made of slender pipe will flex; so use a diameter appropriate for your table height. Use bolts that just reach through the pipe and put the nut inside the pipe to avoid squeezing the pipe. Put additional nuts on the bolt inside the pipe to locate the screw-eye in the middle if you want.

With this leg construction, you can stiffen the table top with steel angles rather than 2x4s. Fasten them to the table with short carriage bolts. The whole thing becomes much lighter and easier to move and store, by removing the legs.

[brianel027]

Steve, Just a brief intro:
at one time these trains were considered toys and were marketed at kids. Many items were made to an approximate 1/4 inch scale, with generous liberties being taken - after all, they were just toys. Kids don't worry about precise scale dimensions... kids want to run trains and have fun playing.
Today, the vast majority of train buyers are adults. The adults have demanded more exact scale proportion and more realism. There are trains being made that will make the 027 curve, though the catalogs will say "minimum curve 031." Part of this is because when the adults hear "027" they immediately think "TOY" trains... "oh I don't want that. It's a toy, it's not scale."
SO IT HAS GOTTEN CONFUSING, especially for a newcomer like yourself. The 3 major companies, Lionel, K-Line and MTH all want the number #1 position. In the process they've all introduced track systems that are all different and not easily compatible, if at all. And I'm not even mentioning the control systems...
The Lionel FasTrack and MTH Real Track are nice. BUT the molded roadbed it comes with is large and takes up a lot of space on a 4'x8' layout. I've seen layouts made with the MTH Real Track and on a 4'x8' there is hardly anyroom for anything but the track and a couple of buildings. I'd save the FasTrack for the under the tree and use something else for your layout.

•Now, I personally like the 027. Yes, you will be limited with what you can run... some of the newer more scale-proportioned engines and cars either won't make the 027 curves, or will not clear the housing on the 027 switch (Those scale sized cars and engines are also more expensive than the more "traditionally" sized items). BUT the 027 track is the most affordable available and will allow more layout possibilities on a small board. Being you are a family man with kids, cost may be a consideration. You can often find 027 switches and track used in good shape at train shows. Even at full list price, it's still more affordable. 027 track has been made for eons, so there's lots of it out there.
•Same goes for the Lionel 0 track. It's just a little taller with heavier rails and ties. It's a little more money than the 027. Guys who run Magne-traction engines swear by it, But since your engine has traction tires, that's not so important. The postwar Lionel 022 switches are better than the 027 ones in quality, and are much easier to run off a separate power source than the 027 switches, but I still like the lower track height of the 027 track.
•The Atlas 0 Track is extremely nice. It's been called the nicest looking track made today... it is available in several curve diameters, including 27 inch I believe. But it's also much more expensive. Switches too are more costly.
•Gargraves is in my opinion is the best compromise between realism and affordability. There is an art to bending the Gargraves track, but it's not impossible. The Gargraves switches have improved several years ago. Gargraves is also very close in height to 027 track. The Gargraves switch also has a much smaller base or footprint than the 027 switches, which allow more room for buidlings and scenery. You could use Gargraves switches with 027 sectional track... Gargraves does make mating pins for this purpose.
•Yes, your dealer mentioned Ross Switches. There's also Curtis too. These are the BMW's of train switches. Lots of variety, supreme realism, good operation and very, very expensive compared to others.

It all depends on what you want to spend on track and what you will be running on that track. If you plan on spending $400-$800 (and more) on a single scale train engine, you may want (and need) nicer track to run it on. But you and your boys can make ties out of balsa wood for the 027 track to make it look more real. The 027 manual switches can easily be operated with fishline or bicycle cables to mimic the electric ones. Also 027 track is available in several diameters. The switches are available in 27" and 42" diameters. K-Line recently cataloged an 027 switch with a much smaller switch box. The switch still has the same size footprint, but the smaller housing will allow more flexibility in what you run. Overall, the K-Line 027 switches are a little better than the Lionel ones as far as operation goes.
Part of the fun of the hobby is doing somethings yourself and making it into a learning project involving some thinking and creativity.

brianel, Agent 027

[Anonymous]

Look into Atlas track, it's about $3.00 per section, looks great and performs well.....for your 4 x 8 you should not have any problems.
Two ovals for starters, use the 027 curves and straights for the inner loop, use 036 curves for the outer oval. Try it without switches initially. Check the AtlasO.com for their
RTS Freeware, it's free and once you get used to it you can come up with many layouts, or use some of their sample layouts. I know what limitations a 4 X 8 can be like, I'm using one now.....with three ovals, (the outer 045 curves). Running three TMCC Engines. Good Luck

[Big_Boy_4005]

If I was going to start over I would go with Atlas too. The selection, and appearance are excellent, and even though they are a relative newcomer to 3 rail O, they have been making quality model railroading products for longer than anyone except Lionel.