Late 80's Alco - runs terrible - need help!

[FEClionel]

Now that we are getting closer to "train season" I starting taking a mental inventory of what I want to run this year. After many years of shunning what I consider my first real train set - Lionel Silver Spike - Amtrak Alco AA - 6 passeneger cars - that I recieved for Christmas 1989 I want to run this one this year under the tree.

My only problem is that this thing runs loud and about as smooth as a V8 firing on 5 cylinders. Is there a way to retrofit a newer motors or drop in motors with new trucks like Williams power upgrade set? Or should find a 200 series postwar beater and switch the powered frame with mine? Any suggestions are greatly appriciated!

[bfskinner]

FEClionel,

Not sure I'm familiar with that locomotive, but I've seen the following problems with locos of that era. If it's what I think it is:

Have you tried cleaning out and re-greasing the lower bearing plate and looking at a motor diagram to determine whether there is supposed to be a ball bearing in the drive train somewhere. If so, is it where it is supposed to be? Or, heaven forbid, is it somewhere else in the works? Same for the very thin thrust-washers, if any. You may be able to find "exploded" diagrams on the Lionel website.

Does your brushplate have a small adjusting screw in the top? You can fiddle with that. Vertical "play" is fairly critical. Are the brushes themselves smooth and riding smoothly on a clean commutator face. I have seen situations where brushes actually struck the little solder joints on the armature. This is generally due to wear in the brush plate which allows the top of the shaft to wobble, and the rotating parts below it can actually strike other pieces. If suspicious, I'd replace the brushplate. Always replace the springs when you replace the brushes.

This could be totally wrong. The loco number would help.

[choochin3]

The locos FEC are talking about have can motors in 'em.

I have found that a decent amout of grease on the gears will remedy most of the noise.

Also the gear that transfers power from the motor to the other gears

has a speed nut that holds it on,this can come loose after a while.

Just use a pair of needle nose pliers and apply inward pressure to eliminate some of the play.

Hopes this helps,

Carl T.

 

 

[bfskinner]

Carl T.

Knowing precisely what piece of equiipment is under discussion certainly does help.

[stubbsO]

   I'm not familar with that one either. But, I do have a bicentennial loco from the 70's [The sprit of "76"] that sounds like what your is doing, and I have tried everything to make it better and still just sat in the box and collected dust becauase I couldn't figure it out. Then the clue light hit! Digging through parts and stuff and thinking, why not swap armatures with this and see what happens. Stuffed in a postwar armature and the thing smokes the track like a Lionel should!!! Maybe try that?

[4kitties]

   Stuffed in a postwar armature and the thing smokes the track like a Lionel should!!!

Reminds me of a couple of mid-70's MPC NW2 switchers I had.  They had open-frame motors and they ran horribly rough.  I determined the armatures were badly out of balance.  I was able to balance them by applying epoxy glue to the light side.  The engines ran great after that.  Of course it meant I could never rewind them if needed, but armatures are easy to come by so I didn't hesitate to do it.

Joel

[brianel027]

Nope guys, as mentioned, these locos have truck mounted Mabuchi DC can motors.

This is an area of experience for me as many of my locos are this type. The "growl" noise these truck mounted motored diesels make is an inevitable factor of these locos. At one time I thought it might have something to do with the circuit boards, but locos where the DC can motor is a intrinsic part of the loco frame (such as steam engines, the industrial switcher) are not nearly as noisy, even with circuit baords intact.

One thing you can do is to remove traction tires on opposite sides of the same truck. Without fast angle wheels, and having two traction tires of differing sides of the same loco truck, while improving traction, will also cause the motor to work a little harder and will help to contribute to the growl noise. I'd remove all traction tires and then re-adhere a single traction tire on each truck. Some use glue (don't remember what kind) but I use 3M Carpet Tape, which works just fine. Also make sure all the gears are lubed.

Another though: add a spring between the frame of the top of the motor truck frame housing over the guide pin that slots into the curved slit in the frame. A spring will help put pressure on the other end of the truck, helping traction and preventing derailments of the lead truck going off the track on curves and when going into switch tracks. 

The Mabuchi motors used in these locos do not always run at the same speed. Sometimes there can be a visible difference in the speed of two motors on the very same loco. This can also contribute to the problem mentioned in the question. I have enough of these locos so I have swapped out trucks from one loco to another, thus pairing up motored trucks that are more in synch with each other - which has improved operation of these locos.

It may be just as economical to buy one or two extra Mabuchi motors and replace one or both than to replace the entire chassis.

I have also removed the circuit boards from a good many of my locos and find they do run smoother and more quietly on DC current, which is how I run my layout - on DC current. I have found enough of an improvement in operation of these locos that prompted me to remove circuit boards and run my layout on rectified DC current. You can also add some additional weight to the locomotive frame above the trucks as much as possible. This may help.

I have enough of these kinds of locos and can confidently say they don't all operate exactly the same. I have one or two K-Line Alco FA's with all traction tires removed, but with added weight inside the loco and they operate and pull as well as anything I have.

The Williams basic locos differ from these others as they have larger DC can motors that are horizontally mounted inside the body above the frame with the geared motor armature going down into the truck. Many have flywheel motors and Williams locos have a differing gear arrangement. Even with the metal gears, I have found Williams locos to be exceptionally quiet smooth runners, even the single motored 44-ton Center Cab Switcher by Williams.