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  • Member since
    January, 2001
  • From: WV
  • 1,238 posts
Posted by coalminer3 on Friday, April 07, 2006 2:27 PM
Good Afternoon Barkeep and All Present; coffee, please; round for the house and $ for the jukebox.

Work, work, work..........but here we are. BTW, gas is $2.79 here (went up 14 cents yesterday between 9 a.m. and noontime). My car was in the hospital and I got it back today - for a change the parts cost more than the labor. WV terrain and road conditions do wonders for brakes, front ends, etc.

I'm glad the baseball post started things rolling a little. Then we had more historical material, Jesse James, RDCs, rugby matches. What an eclectic grouping (No Boris, not electric).

The NYC's jet Budd has always piqued some interest. For those of you who are flying machine buffs, IIRC, the engines on the RDC came off of a B-47; one of the best looking aircraft ever built. Go watch "Strategic Air Command" for some great pictures of B47s and B36s, too. Almost forgot this has baseball in it as well (Cardinals, yet). Maybe our "steamed proprietor can run it at ther Mentor Theatuh some evening. Jimmy Stewart and June Alyson (don't think I have spelled her last name correctly).

In line with our now and then coal postings. Here's a list of active anthracite (!) mines in 1950. Check out which railroads served these operations. I was talking with some anthracite mining friends this morning which brought this list to mind.

Anthracite Mines – 1950

Central Railroad Co. of New Jersey

Sam Capone Coal Co.
Miners Mills Mine – Plains, PA – CNJ/Erie
Duryea Anthracite Coal Co., Inc.
Ridgewood Breaker – Laflin, PA
West End Colliery – Mocanaqua, PA – CNJ/PRR
Glen Alden Coal Co.
South Wilkes-Barre No. 5 – Wilkes-Barre, PA
Huber No. 20 – Ashley, PA
Kidder-Empire – Wilkes-Barre, PA
Wanamie No. 18 – Wanamie, PA
Buttonwood No. 22 – Buttonwood, PA
Audenried No. 4 – Audenried, PA
Nottingham – Plymouth, PA – DL&W/CNJ

Delaware and Hudson Railroad

John Conlon Coal Co.
Madeira Breaker – Hudson, PA – Erie/D&H
DeAngelis Coal Company
Boland Mine – Carbondale, PA
Heidelberg Coal Co.
Heidelberg No. 1 Mine – Avoca, PA – LV/D&H
Hudson Coal Co.
Baltimore Mines – Parsons, PA
Coal Brook Mine – Carbondale, PA
Delaware Mine – Hudson, PA
Eddy Creek Mine – Olyphant, PA
Gravity Slope Mine – Archbald, PA
Greenwood Mine – Minooka, PA
Laflin (Breaker) – Hudson, PA
Loree Nos. 2,3,4,5 and Boston Collieries – Plymouth, PA
Marvine Colliery – Providence, PA
Olyphant Colliery – Olyphant, PA
Pine Ridge Colliery – Parsons, PA
Powderly Colliery – Mayfiled, PA
Delaware, Lackawanna & Western

Courtdale Coal Co.
Ciurtdale Mine – Courtdale, PA (Luzerne County)
Dial Rock Coal Co.
Dial Rock Colliery – Wyoming, PA
Glen Alden Coal Co.
Truesdale – Auchincloss, PA
Bliss – Auchincloss, PA
Baker – Scranton, PA
Woodward – Kingston, PA
Lance No. 11 – Plymouth, PA- DL&W/CNJ
Avondale – Plymouth, PA
Loomis – Auchnicloss, PA
Harry E. Coal Co.
Harry E. and Forty Fort Collieries – Luzerne – LV/DL&W
Meadowside Coal Co.
Dunmore Colliery – Dunmore, PA – Erie/DL&W
Moffat Coal Company
Taylor Colliery – Taylor, PA

Erie Railroad

Ace Coal Co
Ace Breaker – Blakely, PA (Lackawanna County)
Sam Capone Coal Co.
Miners Mills Mine – Plains, PA – CNJ/Erie
John Conlon Coal Co.
Madeira Breaker – Hudson, PA – Erie/D&H
Consagra Coal Co,.
Blakely Breaker – Jessup, PA
Gateway Coal Co.
Forest City Washery – Forest City, PA
Meadowside Coal Co.
Dunmore Colliery – Dunmore, PA – Erie/DL&W
Moosic Mountain Coal Co.
Moosic Mountain Breaker – Jessup, PA
Motley Coal Co.
Erie Colliery – Mayfield, PA

Northwest Coal Co.
Northwest Colliery – Carbondale, PA – Erie/NYO&W
No. 9 Coal Co. – Affiliated with Harry E. Coal Co., Sullivan Trail Co., and Indian Head Coal Co.
No. 9 Colliery – Avoca, PA
Butler Mine – Pittston, PA
Pennsylvania Coal Company
Underwood Colliery – Jessup, PA

Lehigh and New England Railroad

Lehigh Navigation Coal Company
Coaldale Colliery – Coaldale, PA
Lansford Colliery – Lansford, PA
Tamaqua Colliery – Tamaqua, PA

Lehigh Valley Railroad

Bernice White Ash Coal Co., Inc.
Connell Mine – Bernice, PA (Sullivan County?)
Colitz Coal Co., Inc.
Colitz Colliery – York Farm Jct. (Schuylkill County)
Harry E. Coal Co.
Harry E. and Forty Fort Collieries – Luzerne – LV/DL&W
Hazle Brook Coal Company
Continental Mine – Centralia, PA
Midvalley Colliery – Wilburton, PA
Heidelberg Coal Co.
Heidelberg No. 1 Mine – Avoca, PA – LV/D&H
Hydrotated Anthracite Fuel Co., Inc.
Cold Spring No. 6 Washery – Milnesville, PA
Jeddo-Highland Coal Co.
Drifton Mine – Jeddo, PA
Eckley & Buck Mountain Mines – Jeddo, PA
Jeddo No. 4 Mine – Jeddo, Pa
Highland No. 5 Mine – Jeddo, PA – Coal prepared at Jeddo No. 7
Stockton Mine – Jeddo, PA
Jeddo No. 7 Breaker – Jeddo, PA
Kehoe-Berge Coal Company
William A; No. 10 Tunnel; Phoenix A; Red Ash; Stevens; No. 11 Slope Mine – Old Forge, PA – LV/NYO&W
Exeter Mine – Pittston, PA
Lehigh Valley Coal Company
Dorrance Colliery – Wilkes-Barre, PA
Henry Mine – Wilkes-Barre, PA
Prospect Mine – Wilkes-Barre, PA
Westmoreland Mine – Wyoming, PA
Hazleton Shaft Colliery – Hazleton, PA
Franklin Mine – Wilkes-Barre, PA
Locust Coal Company
Weston Colliery – Shenandoah, PA
Mammoth Coal Co.
Mammoth Colliery – Raven Run, PA LV/RDG
Morea Mining Co.
Morea Colliery – Morea, PA – LV/PRR
Payne Coal Co.
Spring Mountain Mine – Jeanesville, PA

New York, Ontario and Western Railway (NYO&W)

Kehoe-Berge Coal Company
William A; No. 10 Tunnel; Phoenix A; Red Ash; Stevens; No. 11 Slope Mine – Old Forge, PA – LV/NYO&W
Northwest Coal Co.
Northwest Colliery – Carbondale, PA – Erie/NYO&W

Pennsylvania Railroad

Duryea Anthracite Coal Co., Inc.
West End Colliery – Mocanaqua, PA – CNJ/PRR
Franklin-Lykens Coal Co.
Lykens Colliery – Lykens, PA
Gowen Coal Co.
Gowen Colliery – Gowen, PA
Landingville Coal Company
River Dredging Operations – Landingville, Adamsdale, PA –
Morea Mining Co.
Morea Colliery – Morea, PA – LV/PRR
Natalie Coal Corp.
Colonial Breaker – Natalie, PA – RDG/PRR
Philadelphia & Reading Coal & Iron Company
Oak Hill Colliery – Minersville, PA – RDG/PRR

Reading Railroad

Buck Run Colliery Co.
Buck Run Mine – Minersville, PA
D&B Coal Co., Inc.
Branch Breaker – Llewellyn, PA
Eagle Hill Coal Co.
Whitby Colliery – Pottsville, PA
Gilberton Coal Co.
Gilberton Mine – Gilberton, PA
Hammond Coal Company
Hammond Colliery – Girardville, PA
Indian Head Coal Company
Indian Head Colliery – Tremont, PA
Joliett Coal Co.
Joliett Colliery – Goodspring, PA
Kohinoor Coal Co.
Kohinoor Colliery – Shenandoah, PA
Landingville Coal Company
River Dredging Operations – Landingville, Adamsdale, PA – RDG/PRR
Mammoth Coal Co.
Mammoth Colliery – Raven Run, PA LV/RDG
Mid-Valley Coal Co., Inc.
Mid-Valley Breaker – Pottsville, PA
Mountain Top Coal Co.
Bell Colliery – Tuscarora, PA
Natalie Coal Corp.
Colonial Breaker – Natalie, PA – RDG/PRR
Otto Collieries Co.
Otto Colliery – Branchdale, PA
Philadelphia & Reading Coal & Iron Company
St. Nicholas Central Breaker – St. Nicholas, PA
Knickerbocker Mine – Shenandoah, PA
Reliance Mine – Mt. Carmel, PA
Locust Gap Mine – Locust Gap, PA
Potts Mine – Locust Dale, PA
Oak Hill Colliery – Minersville, PA – RDG/PRR
Hunter Mine – Coal prepared at Locust Summit and Oak Hill Breakers
Porter Tunnel Colliery – Tower City, PA
Sheridan Washery – Tower City, PA

work safe

  • Member since
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  • From: northeast U.S.
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Posted by LoveDomes on Friday, April 07, 2006 3:17 PM
G'day Tom and fellow travelers at the bar!

How about a nice cold frosty mug of Scheafer beer[?] Slide that bowl of pretzels down this way, wudja[?] Thanks! Here's a ten spot for a round on me or for the "Lars Box" - your choice![tup]

So, Coalminer-what's-his-face did show up, huh[?] Not sure by the gist of his post that he caught what we're trying to do this day. Looks as if BK and I have to get back to the drawing boards . . .

That's quite an impressive list of anthracite mines - wonder how many are still active[?] No, no, no - don't tell us![swg]

Eclectic - electric - whatever! We understand, right Boris[?][:O][%-)]

Hey "bookend" you made it!! Sorry about the connectivity thing - can be a Royal Pain in the Patoot (if those things are measured in Royalty increments!)[swg] Nevertheless, you "done good" and I concur, next time we'll try to hold a muster for the guys we can count on to join in. I think the boss-man was suprised and pleased with our efforts. After all, he didn't send Tex out to bite our ankles did he[?][swg]

Nice shots of those NYC Jets!![tup][tup]

I must have sent a half dozen emails out to people on the net, asking for the ok to use their pix. No resonses - not a one. Looks like Tom has much better luck in doing these kinds of things. My experiences have been that if you look long and hard enough, you'll find all kinds of pix out there that are not listed as "copyright" or otherwise protected. Those are the ones I go for first. I've read more than one account where the courts are finding that once stuff is put "out there" it's awfully hard, if not impossible, to guarantee rights to it, much less protect it.
Another unintended consequence of the technology, huh[?]

Rob Toronto should have snapped up all of those Via Rail RDCs that ultimately wound up in Texas - or at least sufficient numbers to guarantee a fleet for the airport run. Such a shame indeed. But what really should happen is to go with more modern technology - mono rail or MagLev, etc. High speed runs make much more sense with "clean" fuels and automation wherever possible. That's what is happening all over the world and of course in our amusement parks and to link concourses at many international airports! Wouldn't think of using the technology for "real" huh[?]

I'll have another, barkeep! Went down awfully s-m-o-o-t-h!<grin>

Until the next time!

  • Member since
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  • From: Alberta's Canadian Rockies
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Posted by BudKarr on Friday, April 07, 2006 3:52 PM
Good Afternoon Captain Tom and all assembled!

Back again, and this time we are functioning in the "router mode!" My "techie roomie" finally got us up and running. A combination of far too much information coupled with some simplicity made for a "fix." Will not even chance an attempt at explaining any of this . . .

Figured I would add a bit of conversation to the Friday mix - if for no other reason than to give you a respite and keep the thread up on the forum page, as you like to put it.[swg] I see the JOs are out in force again with their incessant crap, nonsense and otherwise brainless postings. Then again, my guess is many probably put us in those categories as well. In the words of our "steamed Proprietor,"
QUOTE: Screw 'em all, but six and save those for pallbearers!

I surely am a bit down in the mouth about not being able to upload/download and otherwise reload those pix I had in mind for today. Not at all sure about Sunday for us - and right now, I think the next couple are going to be a bit difficult in terms of spending time at the keyboard. That was one of the reasons I had wanted to get a let up on photo posting now. As mentioned, the best of intentions . . .

How about a round on me and a Southern Comfort on the rocks[?] Oh yes, my intended would like a glass of white wine, if you please!

To one and all, enjoy the weekend as we progress toward the 12th of April.[tup]

  • Member since
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  • 4,191 posts
Posted by wanswheel on Friday, April 07, 2006 4:22 PM
A round for the house, Tom, and there is no chance that your thread is underappreciated where I'm at.
If it's not too soon to say so, Our Place is, apart from everything else that it is, a stunning achievement!
Early congratulations and thank you very much for keeping this joint way up to standards.
It's an honor to share space here .

"The world's first large swept-wing jet, the B-47 was a revolution in aviation technology. It incorporated a plethora of new concepts that had a direct and lasting impact on future jet aircraft, both military and commercial. The B-47 pioneered the basic design for large jets, incorporating swept wings at 35 degrees and introducing podded engines. The B-47 design continues to be the basic pattern for current and future jet transports including the A380 and 7E7. Lessons learned resulted in spoilers, yaw dampers, maintenance access and structural integrity." http://www.boeing.com/news/frontiers/archive/2003/december/photos/12-COV-B-47.jpg

Wingspan 116 feet. A monster of an airplane but a B-17 could've fit (on its tail or sideways) in the waiting room of the old Penn Station, 7th to 8th Avenues and 31st to 33rd Streets
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgdisplaylargemeta.cfm?strucID=229939&imageID=440639&word=pennsylvania%20station&s=1¬word=&d=&c=&f=&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&num=36&imgs=12&total=45&pos=37 http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/details_pop.aspx?iid=3231503&cdi=0 Tracks & Post Office
http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/details_pop.aspx?iid=51743312&cdi=0 Night
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Posted by West Coast S on Friday, April 07, 2006 6:53 PM
Afternoon Tom and the crew, Round of CR, easy ice. Well, on the road again, but i'm back for now.. I see the joint is jumping and the return of several who have been absent for are too long.

Waneswheel, the B47 take was interesting, several former SAC pilots I work with nicknamed them "The Widow Maker" for their eratic flight controls that was responsible for a much publicized horrendous takeoff crash at George AFB in the late fifties, in memory of their fallen crew members..

Dang, Lars.. missed the party, have a round or several on me. I'll have Boris give you a i'm sorry kiss!!!

Rob, don't get me started on so called urban renewal, too many historic structures have been lost already, here in my area several PE structures have been converted into restraunts, disco's or any manner of usues except historic railroad interpertation if they even survived being asunder to widen roadways or to fatten the pocket of some local developer. Such a fate awaited what is believed tobe the last existence PE wooden depot, it took many years and untold dollars and lots of back room dealing to save it from being torn down to make for a roadway improvement project.

Tom, RDC's do indeed come in all varities!!! Budd had a home run with these, I understand the Alaskan RR still runs a few, re-engined with Cat 300hp plants and microprocessor controls to comply with the new tier 2 emission standards good for over 100mph, though they operate in the 30-45 mph range to quote a mechanical official!! They are used in the off tourist season when it is not conducive to assemble a full consits when just locals are the riders and as a added bonus they can buck two feet of snow thus elimating the need to run a pilot engine ahead to clear the line.

SP trvia:

Once upon the great terminal at Roseville boasted two complete roundhouses, turntable and shops, one for articulated power the second for all other steam power, the articulated barn was located conveiently where Cab Forwards could be changed for lighter power which handle the rest of the run to Oakland, likewise eastbounds change out power or aquired helpers for the climb over Donner Summit. Shasta Route traffic also passed through this bottleneck and one can't forget the North Western Pacific line to Shaffer that diverged at Roseville. To handle this traffic two humpyards were employed with a third flat yard for locals. With the Sacramento Shops close by, this by far was the largest terminal on the system until Colton was constructed, over 200 trains a day were assembled/brokenup had power added or changed during the steam era, locals, passengers, if it operated on the SP, Roseville was somehow involved.

The conversion to diesel shook Roseville to the core, in 1960 the Articulated roundhouse was razed the turntable removed and the pit filled in, to handle the changes wrought by diesels the hump yards were ripped out and rebuilt with stronger retarders and longer classification tracks. Soon roundhouse two would also be gone, replaced with a modest diesel service facality. Changing traffic patterns and operating would allow some trains to run through without pause. Some things could not be changed,the traditional terminal for helpers and a base for winter snowfighting remained as it had always been.


SP the way it was in S scale
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Posted by siberianmo on Friday, April 07, 2006 7:10 PM

A Friday not soon to be forgotten! THANX to Lars 'n BK for putting it together, much appreciated![tup][tup][tup] I don't think either of you should feel bad about one aspect of the day - you tried - it worked - you made my day![swg]

The best RR book that I've come across regarding RDCs is this one:

If I have any complaint it is that sufficient time has elapsed for an update. The authors should seriously consider a "part deux!!"[yeah]

Many THANX also for the rounds and quartes for our Coal Scuttle![tup]

Today really wasn't a "party" as such - that's a misread. It was a heartfelt effort to show a bit of appreciation directed towards me by a couple of supportive customers.

Good to see all of you today and for whatever you've gotten out of the Posts, my hope is that the "buzzword" should continue to be "inclusiveness" . . .

Also should mention the kind words from wanswheel Mike - and of course the URLs. I think the "Urlmeister" is by far the leader in providing the most relevant material to the discussion of the day. Good show![tup][tup]

Leon the Night Man takes the bar at 9 PM (Central)!

Later (maybe]![tup]

Tom[4:-)] [oX)]

THINK April 12th –
The 1st year Anniversary of ”Our” Place!
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
  • Member since
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  • From: northeast U.S.
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Posted by LoveDomes on Friday, April 07, 2006 7:31 PM
Good Evening!

Back again with one more post to close out the "theme" we tried to establish for you:

Budd Company

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Budd Company (now ThyssenKrupp Budd) is a metal fabricator and major supplier of body components to the automobile industry.

The company is headquartered in Troy, Michigan. It was founded in 1912 by Edward G. Budd. Edward Budd's fame came from his invention of the 'shotweld' technique for joining pieces of stainless steel without damaging the anti-corrosion properties of the stainless steel.

A railroad legend

The first Budd passenger railcar, the Lafayette, 1932From the 1930s until 1989 The Budd Company was also a leading manufacturer of stainless steel streamlined passenger rolling stock for a number of railroads. After briefly dabbling with French Micheline rubber-tyred technology, they built the Pioneer Zephyr for the Chicago, Burlington and Quincy Railroad in 1934, and hundreds of streamlined lightweight stainless steel passenger cars for new trains in the USA in the 1930s and 1940s. In the 1950s Budd built a set of two-story or high-level cars for the Santa Fe's El Capitan and Super Chief passenger trains, which became the prototypes for the Amtrak Superliner cars of the 1980s. Budd also built two-story gallery passenger cars for Chicago-area commuter service on the Milwaukee Road, Burlington Route, and Rock Island lines duing the 1960s and 1970s; most of these cars are still in service on today's Metra routes. Stainless steel Budd cars originally built for the Canadian Pacific Railway's 1955 train The Canadian are still in service with Via Rail Canada.

Train in one car

In 1949, Budd introduced the Rail Diesel Car or RDC, a stainless steel self-propelled 'train in one car' which prolonged rail service on many lightly populated railway lines, but also provided a flexible, air conditioned car for suburban commuter service. More than 300 RDCs were built. Some RDCs are still in service in Canada, the USA and Australia. One example is OnTrack in Syracuse, New York. In the 1960's, Budd built the Pioneer III electric m.u. coach for intercity travel. Six were built and were purchased by the former Pennsylvania Railroad, but in 1966, these Pioneer III cars, later called "Silverliner I" cars, were replaced with the "Silverliner II" cars, which used the Pioneer III body, but with much improvements, for Philadelphia-area commuter rail service on both the PRR and Reading Company lines. Budd was also contracted for building the original Metroliner m.u. coaches for Washington-New York City service on the Northeast Corridor, but has been replaced with more traditional locomotive-hauled systems. The Silverliner II cars, still in service (but is slated to be replaced with newer "Silverliner V" cars), has a top speed of 100 m.p.h., while the old Metroliner m.u. cars traveled at speeds of 125 m.p.h., although they were slated for 150 m.p.h. service--a feat now possible with the new Acela trainset

Almond Joys

In 1960. Budd manufactured the first stainless steel production subway cars for Philadelphia's Market-Frankford Line. 270 cars (nicknamed the Almond Joys for the 4 ventilators on top of the roof of each car) were jointly owned by the City of Philadelphia and the Philadelphia Transportation Company (now SEPTA). 46 single units and 112 married pairs (the pairs were of "mixed" marriage because the odd-numbered car came with General Electric motors and equipment was permanently coupled to the even-numbered car, which had Westinghouse motors and equipment). These cars were replaced with more modern air-conditioned units, although some cars were retrucked (the Market-Frankford line is a broad-gauge line) and used on the Norristown High Speed Line (a standard railroad gague line) until they were replaced in the mid-1990's.

Automobile innovations

In 1966, Budd designed and manufactured a front disc brake system for Chrysler and Imperial automobiles, used for the 1967 and 1968 model years.

Budd also built two series of "L" cars for the Chicago Transit Authority, the 2200s (1969–1970) and 2600s (1981–1987). The New York City Subway R32 (1964-1965), Long Island Rail Road/Metro-North Railroad M-1 (1968–1973/M2 (1973-1976)/M3 (1984-1986), NJ Transit Arrow III (1978), Baltimore Metro Subway and Miami Metrorail cars (1983) were also built by Budd.

All of Amtrak's 492 Amfleet and 150 Amfleet II cars were built by Budd in 1977 and 1980/1981. The Amfleet body was recycled for usage in the SPV2000, a modernized RDC which was very problematic, saw only three buyers (Amtrak, Metro-North, and ConnDOT), and saw very premature retirements. The fallout from the SPV2000 furthered the decline of the company.

In the early 1980s, Budd reorganized its rail operations under the name Transit America, this name appearing on the builderplates of the Baltimore/Miami cars and Chicago's later 2600s (but not the LIRR/Metro-North M3s). The new name did not save the company, as in 1987 Budd ended all railcar production and sold its rail designs to Bombardier.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A round for the house on me and I'll take a cold, frosty mug of Keiths Pale Ale - thank you!

Until the next time![tup]

  • Member since
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Posted by siberianmo on Friday, April 07, 2006 10:11 PM
Evenin' Gents!

Leon I'll take a Keiths while I check out that Post from Lars on the Budd Company. Nice work and THANX (again) for the treat![tup][tup][tup] Don't recall youl being around so often,. except of course for Bash and 'special' events. Really appreciate it - you've "come to save the day!!" And you 'n BudKarr surely have![wow]

Just thought I'd get that "leg up" on the 'morrow - as I won't have very much time for Posting on Saturday - which of course is ENCORE! Saturday - hope someone is able to 'step up' and help out.

Check this out:

Budd SPV2000 (foto credit: Joe Testagrose)

New Haven Budd RDC Roger Williams (foto credit: B. Coolidge

Amtrak Budd RDC Roger Williams (foto credit: B. Coolidge


Tom[4:-)] [oX)]
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
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Posted by trolleyboy on Friday, April 07, 2006 11:29 PM
Good evening Leon, I think a round of Bud in deference to the fine efforts put forth by the bookends over the coarse of today. I have to commend you both for hatching and successfully deploying your give Tom a break plan.Not only was the information excellent it was very much on theme for the whole idea of this wonderfull little creation of Tom's. Kudos and hats off to both of you.[^]

Lars As I had said earlier today your two Budd posts were right on,solid info and I know that Tom appreciated it very much.

BK Hey connectivity problems or not you manged to hit us with the appropriate pictures, for the NYC "jetcar"full marks for the perserverance through the roter problems. Ican personally attest to the annoyances of dial up as that is my way onto the web for the time being anyway. There are days that I don't feel like dealing with the skow draggyness of it,but for this thread I probably wouldn't bother, but the crew here for the most part is second to none.

CM3 Interesting list of coalhaulers,I was supprised at the number of mines served by the D&H. Not a road I would equate to coal,but there it is in black and white.

Tom Fret not about tomorrow, I have the early shift in the morning,however I shall put up an encore in a few moments and I will check back tomorrow a nudge things along.

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Posted by trolleyboy on Friday, April 07, 2006 11:43 PM
Silly me my brain must be completly addled, I was amiss and did not reply to a couple queries/comments aimed at me earlier. i sahll noww try to make amense

Lars I think thta an airport transit link in Toronto is inevitable,they just haven't manged to come up with a workable ( read affordable ) plan. Many proposals from RDC's to literail to subways to just plain strait VIA or Go Transit have been put foreward. There was even a though of doing a monorail type run similar to those in Disney's parks. ( likely the most far fetched and least likley choice ) mind you if it costs more that's where Toronto tends to go. One of the biggest , most extreme example of them dropping the ball was the loss of those RDC's to Dallas. I can remember taking the Go train to Blue Jay games and seeing those cars parked in the Mimico Yard just before Union station for at least three years while VIA searched for a buyer. Just no forward vision,In the long run my bet is on a lite rail type system likely run by the TTC,of coarse this would depend on some heavy government funding from all three levels,it's the getting the threee to work together and pick a plan that's taken all the time. I migth see it done by the time I'm 50, i figure that gives them 15 yeasr to pick it and build it.

Dave Saw your post hiding there.There just is too little preservation being done in general. I've seen too many historic train stations have mysterious "fires" the last 10 yeasr or so. Oddly enough the only way you can remove old trainstations legally in Ontario now is if they are damaged tio the point of being unsafe. As about 15 or so years ago the prov. gov, passed the historic stations act, which gave blanket herritage building status to all the train stations in the province,mwhich means they must not just simpy be bulldozed. If you want to build where it is you must oay to move it,thus the rash of fires. Unfortunatly the act gives no money to maintain the stations, that is a private sector thing. At least it's some protection.

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Posted by trolleyboy on Friday, April 07, 2006 11:52 PM

First encore for this saturday,put forward with the mind that the rendezvous is so close that we can smell it,that or it's just Boris's new cologne.[:0][xx(]This post first appeared on page 248.


I figured that with the rendezvous fast approaching that I would run a few bits on the TTC. as some here know the TTC has only existed as such since 1921,it was made up of 5 separate lines ( all with their own fare systems and not transferable between each other ) all serving the city of Toronto. So the next couple of days I'll try to splain some of the nuances.


Toronto Street Railway Company

This company was incorporated in march of 1861,with Alexander Easton becoming it's president. the company was given a thity year franchise from the city of Toronto, to provide horsecar service on Yonge street, Quenn and King streets. Cars were not to exceed 6 miles an hour,and would work sixteen hours during the summer months and fourteen hours during the winter.There was to be no less than 30 min headway between cars, and the fares were to be set at 5 cents.

The company proceeded with these operations until 1869 when they ran into financial distress ( missed bond payments ). Trustee William Casey was appointed to right the ship. In 1873 William and George Kiely took over the assets of the company, and were granted a new act of incorporation to continue the companies obligations to the franchise.The company remained under Kiely control until 1891 when the franchise expired and the city assumed control.

Tornto Railway Company

The city of Toronto continued to operate the street railways until sept of 1891 when the group under William McKenzie ( of McKenzie and Mann intrests ) bouhgt the operation from the city, and began operations on a new 30 year franchise. The New company was now known as the Toronto Railway Company ( TRC ), and would become the largest operator of street railway lines in toronto until the comming of the TTC in 1921.

During the days of the TRC, electrification of the entire system occured and the horse cars were withdrawn.Extenions top the system were made, and the introdustion of open cars in the summer and closed cars in the winter began. Stoves were also installed in these new electric cars ( closed )new double truck and single truck designs ( TR Cars ) were constructed. Double truck cars were mostly rebuilt with airbrakes starting in 1905. ( ahnd brakes were banned in 1917 on passenger cars ).

In 1915, open cars were banned by the Railway Municiple board, and all cars were henceforth required to be the closed type with doors at front and rear. Lifeguards were added to car fronts providing new safety features.There had been many complaints that pedestrians would be maimed or killed if they fell in front of moving cars accidentally if these features were not insatlled. ( Consider the garb of women at the time and the rutted unpaved for the most part roads of this period )

Another improvement which the TRC completed during it's franchise was the replacement of the horse car tracks with heavier girder rail which could more easily support the newer heavier cars. Sunday service was approved by council vote in 1897 making it easier for the public to access beaches and other lesure activities. Even the horse cars were brought back as trailers for the new TR cars to handle the heavier peek traffic times during the week.

progress came to a halt in 1910, when the TRC refused the cities request to expand beyond their original franchise bounderies, as set out in 1891. This decision was upheld by the courts and as a result the cities expansion into the newly annexed areas was hampered. The TRC would uphld this desision until the end of it's franchise on August 31 , 1921. The TRC as a compnay existed on paper until 1930.

Part 1

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    May, 2014
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Posted by trolleyboy on Saturday, April 08, 2006 5:37 AM
ENCORE ! ENCORE ! First encore or the new day ( yes it's still dark here so the counts all good as they say.)
I shall returne later this evening to keep us moving on up today. Enjoy your morning folks.This post originally "aired" on pg 249


As we left of before we were disscussing the pre - merger/ city ownership and control of the now TTC. Pt when delt with the TRC and the old Horse railways from 1861-1921.

The Toronto Civic Railways

Beacause of the refusal on the TRC's part to expand,the city felt something had to be done if development in it's newly annexed areas were to proceed.The Toronto Civic Railways (TCR) was crated in 1911 to this end. Lines were constructed on St Clair,Lansdowne, and Danforth avenues, and on Gerrard and Bloor Streets.There was a fare of 2 cents charged, six tickets for a dime,and transfer privilages on the St Clair amd Lansdowne routes, as these were the only two Civic lines that were physically connected to one another.No transfer arrangements were made with the TRC.The Civic lines did not use turning loops so as such all their cars were double ended. The Civic would continue in operation until 1921, when it was brought under the control of the TTC.

The Toronto Suburban Railway

The TSR, which operated radial lines out of Toronto,provided transportation in the city over some of their own streetcar routes at a separate fare cost.These services ran from the "junction" area of Dundas and Keele streets to the western and northern city limits.Also operated was a route from St Clair and Keele along Davenport Road ending at Bathurst Street.

After TTC operations took over in 1921, the TSR continued to operate these routes for the TTC " in trust ". Once negotiations were concluded in 1923 the TTC aquired these routes outright

Toronto and York Radial Railways

The T & YRR, also operated several radial lines in the Toronto area, and amongst these were severak separate fare street car lines operated inside the city limits.These services were along Kingston Road from Queen street to Victoria Park Ave, Lakeshore Road from the Humber river to Roncesvalles Ave,and the area of Yonge street above Woodlawn Ave, which at the time was known as North Toronto whick was annexed by the city in 1912. Each of these lines continued nto the suburban hinterlands.

The T&Y lines were purchased by the city in 1920 so as to obtain the city protions of them for the TTC. After a period of operation by the Provinces Hydro Electric Commission, the rural portions of these lines also came under TTC control in Jan 1927.

Pt 3 later

  • Member since
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  • From: Chesterfield, Missouri, USA
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Posted by siberianmo on Saturday, April 08, 2006 7:20 AM

from: www.viarail.ca

We open at 6 AM. (Don’t ask how we do that!)[swg]


The weekend is here! Time to enjoy a <light> or <traditional> breakfast from the Menu Board, a pastry of two from The Mentor Village Bakery, and some freshly ground and brewed coffee! What are you waiting for[?][tup]

Daily Wisdom

A man loses his dreams, his teeth and his follies – in that order.[swg]

”Our” Place” ONE YEAR ANNIVERSARY CELEBRATION is Wednesday, April 12th!

Info for the Day:

Railroads from Yesteryear – Illinois Central arrives Tuesday!

* Weekly Calendar:

TODAY: Steak ‘n Trimmin’s Nite! – and –
ENCORE! Saturday

This weekend will be a bit “different” in that I will be rather scarce . . . . so it will be up to all of you to keep this Thread going and at the top of the Forum page! I will provide the Summaries and perhaps a few ENCORE! pieces – but I’m not planning much more.


Comedy Corner

Yarns from the Barn
(from barndad Doug’s Posts)

[:I] An older gentleman had an appointment to see the urologist who shared an office with several other doctors. The waiting room was filled with patients. As he approached the receptionist desk he noticed that the receptionist was a large unfriendly woman who looked like a Sumo wrestler.
He gave her his name. In a very loud voice, the receptionist said, "YES, I HAVE YOUR NAME HERE; YOU WANT TO SEE THE DOCTOR ABOUT IMPOTENCE, RIGHT?"
All the patients in the waiting room snapped their heads around to look at the very embarrassed man. He recovered quickly, and in an equally loud voice replied, "NO, I'VE COME TO ENQUIRE ABOUT A SEX CHANGE OPERATION, BUT I DON'T WANT THE SAME DOCTOR THAT DID YOURS." [:I]

[:I] A biology graduate student went to Borneo to take some samples for his thesis work. He flew there, found a guide with a canoe to take him up the river to the remote site he where he would make his collections. About noon on the second day of travel up the river they began to hear drums. Being a city boy by nature, the biologist was disturbed by this. He asked the guide, "What are those drums?" The guide turned to him and said, "Drums OK, but VERY BAD when they stop."
Well the biologist settled down a little at this, and things went reasonably well for about two weeks. Then, just as they were packing up the camp to leave, the drums suddenly stopped! This hit the biologist like a ton of bricks (to coin a phrase), and he yelled at the guide,
" The Drums have stopped, What happens now?"
The guide crouched down, covered his head with his hands and said:
" Bass Solo" [:I]

[:I] A tourist has been visiting Mexico for a week. He is leaving the next day and he still hasn't tried the food. He goes to a restaurant and sits down to order and then sees what the man next to him has. It looks very tasty.
The waiter comes to take his order and the tourist tells him he wants what the other man beside him is having. The waiter says there is no more left.
The tourist then asks him what the meal is and the waiter replies that it is the testicles from the bull that lost the bullfight earlier that morning. He tells the tourist that if he comes back tomorrow he'll save this meal for him.
The tourist thinks, "What the heck, it'll be my last day here," so he comes back the next day and the waiter has his food prepared for him when he comes.
The man eats the meal and thinks it is delicious. But he is confused about one thing. He calls the waiter over and asks him why his meal looked smaller than the meal the other man had the day before.
The waiter replies, "Oh, sorry sir, sometimes the bull wins." [:I]


The Mentor Village Emporium Theatre


Double Features and Three Stooges Short Subject!

. . . Sunday, April 2nd thru 8th: Eight Men Out (1988) starring: Jace Alexander, John Cusack & Gordon Clapp – and – Field of Dreams (1989) Kevin Costner, Burt Lancaster & James Earl Jones. SHORT: The Big Idea (1934).


. . . Sunday, April 9th thru April 15th: The Harvey Girls (1946) starring: Judy Garland, John Hodiak & Ray Bolger –and- The Train (1964) starring: Burt Lancaster, Paul Scofield & Jeanne Moreau. SHORT: Woman Haters (1934).


Name …..…………… Date/Time …..…..………. (Page#) .. Remarks

(1) siberianmo Tom
Posted: 07 Apr 2006, 06:07:03 (296) Friday’s Info & Summary

(2) siberianmo Tom Posted: 07 Apr 2006, 07:57:00 (296) Acknowledgments, etc.

(3) LoveDomes Lars Posted: 07 Apr 2006, 08:33:40 (296) Lars Report!

(4) LoveDomes Lars Posted: 07 Apr 2006, 08:39:05 (296) The RDC!!

(5) trolleyboy Rob Posted: 07 Apr 2006, 10:49:40 (296) Day lite post

(6)BudKarr BK Posted: 07 Apr 2006, 12:08:04 (296) BK Report!

(7) siberianmo Tom Posted: 07 Apr 2006, 12:53:02 (296 Acknowledgments, etc.

(8) BudKarr BK Posted: 07 Apr 2006, 14:06:08 (296) 3 Pix, etc.

(9) coalminer3 CM3 Posted: 07 Apr 2006, 14:27:23 (296) 1950s Anthracite mines, etc.

(10) LoveDomes Lars Posted: 07 Apr 2006, 15:17:52 (296) Lars Report, part deux!

(11) BudKarr BK Posted: 07 Apr 2006, 15:52:01 (296) BK Report, part deux!

(12) wanswheel Mike Posted: 07 Apr 2006, 16:22:50 (296) URLs, etc.

(13) West Coast S Dave Posted: 07 Apr 2006, 18:53:45 (296) Left Coast Report!

(14) siberianmo Tom Posted: 07 Apr 2006, 19:10:45 (296) Acknowledgments, etc.

(15) LoveDomes Lars Posted: 07 Apr 2006, 19:31:26 (296) The Budd Co.

(16) siberianmo Tom Posted: 07 Apr 2006, 22:11:44 (296) for Lars & 3 Budd Pix!

(17) trolleyboy Rob Posted: 07 Apr 2006, 23:29:10 (296) Inclusive Post

(18) trolleyboy Rob Posted: 07 Apr 2006, 23:43:40 (296) and . . .

(19) trolleyboy Rob Posted: 07 Apr 2006, 23:52:20 (296) ENCORE! Saturday – Classic Juice #21 – Pre-History of the TTC

That’s it! [tup][;)]

Tom [4:-)] [oX)]
Proprietor of “Our” Place, an adult eating & drinking establishment!

THINK April 12th –
The 1st year Anniversary of ”Our” Place!
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
  • Member since
    February, 2004
  • From: Chesterfield, Missouri, USA
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Posted by siberianmo on Saturday, April 08, 2006 8:00 AM
ENCORE! Saturday - ENCORE! Saturday
first Posted on page 158

Here’s another Fallen Flag for the gang from Classic American Railroads:

Chicago, Indianapolis & Louisville - Monon (The Hoosier Line)

Headquarters: Chicago, IL

Mileage in 1950: 573

Locomotives in 1951

Diesel: 57

Rolling stock in 1951:

Freight cars: 2,609
Passenger cars: 59

Principal routes in 1950:

Louisville-Michigan City
Wallace Junction-Midland
Orleans-French Lick

Passenger trains of note:

Bluegrass (Chicago-Louisville)
Chicago Limited (Indianpolis-Chicago)
Day Express (Chicago-Louisville)
Daylight Limited (Chicago-Indianapolis)
Executive (Chicago-Indianapolis)
Hoosier (Chicago-Indianapolis)
Hoosier Limited (Chicago-French Lick)
Night Express (Chicago-Louisville)
Thoroughbred (Chicago-Louisville)
Tippecanoe (Chicago-Indianapolis)
Varsity (Chicago-Bloomington)
Velvet Train (Chicago-Cincinnati)
Mid-Night Special (Chicago-Cincinnati)

Of note:
Trains east of Indianapolis handled by Cincinnati, Hamilton & Dayton
Monon operated on Chicago & Western Indiana tracks between Hammond and Dearborn Station.
Monon operated on Kentucky & Indiana Terminal tracks between New Albany-Youngstown Yard-Union Station.

Enjoy! [tup]

Tom [4:-)] [oX)]

ENCORE! Saturday - ENCORE! Saturday

THINK April 12th –
The 1st year Anniversary of ”Our” Place!
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
  • Member since
    February, 2004
  • From: Chesterfield, Missouri, USA
  • 7,214 posts
Posted by siberianmo on Saturday, April 08, 2006 9:17 AM
ENCORE! Saturday - ENCORE! Saturday
first Posted on page 184


Here’s something to enjoy regarding the Pennsylvania Railroad (PRR) in a 1949 advertisement from my private collection:


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . NEW YORK – CHICAGO . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Now in Service . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

THE NEWLY-EQUIPPED Broadway Limited presents completely new conception of travel . . . with new styling, appointments, riding ease and beauty . . . more comforts and conveniences than ever before, representing the finest that modern design and engineering can offer.

Beautiful new Lounge and Observation Cars . . . attractive new Dining Cars . . . distinctively new, all-room sleeping cars . . . plus the Broadway Limited’s traditional hospitality – all for your personal travel pleasure! WE invite you to make a reservation for your next trip.

NEW MID-TRAIN LOUNGE AND OBSERVATION LOUNGE CARRichly appointed for leisure. Magazines, buffets.

NEW MASTER DINING CARAttractively furnished and decorated. Enjoy delicious food . . . meticulous service. Entire car reserved for dining.

ROOMETTES for one. Full-length bed, wardrobe, complete toilet facilities.

DUPLEX ROOMS for one person. Full length bed becomes comfortable divan during day. Toilet facilities.

COMPARTMENTS for two. Sofa-seat and lounge chair. Lower and upper beds. Wardrobe, enclosed toilet annex.

BEDROOMSfor one or two – in three new styles. Lower and upper beds, wardrobe, enclosed toilet annex.

DRAWING ROOMS for three. Sofa-seat and lounge chairs . . . three beds. Wardrobe, enclosed toilet annex.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD . . . . . . . . . .

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Enjoy! [tup]

Tom [4:-)][oX)]

ENCORE! Saturday - ENCORE! Saturday

Are YOU reading the SUMMARIES[?]
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
  • Member since
    February, 2004
  • From: Chesterfield, Missouri, USA
  • 7,214 posts
Posted by siberianmo on Saturday, April 08, 2006 11:14 AM
ENCORE! Saturday - ENCORE! Saturday
first Posted on page 184


Here’s something to enjoy regarding the BRITISH RAILWAYS in a 1948 advertisement from my private collection:

. . . . . 25% Reduction IN TOUR FARES . . . . .

. . . . . For Americans Visiting The BRITISH ISLES . . . . .

When planning your British Isles holiday, make a list of all the places you want to see in England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales. Your Travel Agent will be glad to help you prepare your complete individual itinerary. That way you’ll effect substantial savings on planned tour tickets offered by British Railways.

. . . . . . . . . . See More in Britain! . . . . . . . . . .

Naturally, you’ll visit our great cities, our world-famous historic and scenic shrines (all within a day’s train trip from London) . . . but with more time you can enjoy so many equally memorable travel experiences in our less publicized byways. So plan to stay longer – discover for yourself the charm of our villages, countryside and rugged coastline.

. . . . . . . . . . Travel means BRITISH RAILWAYS

TRAINS . . . Swift, comfortable transportation to every corner of the British Isles.

HOTELS . . . 45 hotels associated with British Railways, strategically situated for your tour or business trips.

CROSS-CHANNEL FACILITIES . . . Railway-operated steamer services over a wide variety of routes to Ireland and the Continent. Depend on the all-inclusive travel services of British Railways for every phase of your tour of the British Isles. We suggest you secure your rail transportation, as well as Pullman, cross-channel steamer and hotel reservations before your leave.

British Railways – official agents for air tickets on British European Air Corporation routes in the British Isles.

Write for British Railways – new and amusing booklet, ”WHAT, NO ICE?” – written especially for Americans planning to visit us; as well as the full-color map folder, ”THE BRITISH ISLES” both free upon request to Dept. 25 at any of the offices shown below.

For tickets, reservations and authoritative travel information on the British Isles

CONSULT YOUR LOCAL TRAVEL AGENT or any British Railways office:

. . . . . NEW YORK 20, N. Y., 9 ROCKEFELLER Pl.
. . . . . CHICAGO 3, ILL, 39 So. Lasalle St.
. . . . . LOS ANGELES 14, CAL., 510 W. 6th St.
. . . . . TORONTO, ONT., 69 Yonge Street

. . . . . . . . . . BRITISH RAILWAYS . . . . . . . . . .

That's it for me until tonight . . . Enjoy! [tup]

Tom [4:-)][oX)]

ENCORE! Saturday - ENCORE! Saturday

Are YOU reading the SUMMARIES
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
  • Member since
    February, 2005
  • From: mid mo
  • 1,054 posts
Posted by pwolfe on Saturday, April 08, 2006 11:26 AM
Hi Tom and all.

A cup of Our Place's ' famous' coffee this sunny morning please.

We are off in a short while to meet with Tom and Bride.

May I say great posts on the Budd RDC cars and the Jet Powered train LARS AND BK. The photos were brilliant too. [tup][tup][tup].

CM3 Thanks for the list of the anthracite mines. I read recently that for the first time for many years mined steam coal has been available for preserved locos in England although it is produced by a small museum mine and not available any quantity at the present. a sad statement on the once great British coal mining industry [:(].

DOUG Interesting article on The Rebel despite the slow schedule a real effort was made to attract passengers, they certainly looked the part.

ROB I wonder if the original locos on the Lake of Bays railway which were sold to American buyers are in museums now[?].

MIKE Really great links. May I comment on the old English locos Monday they are great old photos.Also I would like to say how good and how much I agree with your comments on TOM and Our Place.[tup].

Good to see you again DAVE.

Many Thanks ROB and TOM for the Encores. I still love the name Hoosier.

Tom Just caught your BR Encore.[tup] Thanks.

  • Member since
    January, 2006
  • From: northeast U.S.
  • 1,225 posts
Posted by LoveDomes on Saturday, April 08, 2006 11:39 AM
Hiya Tom and fellow travelers at the bar!

Just popped in to say that the ENCOREs are looking good from Tom & Rob!!

Just lost a rather long post into cyber space that had my contribution!! Sorry, but I'm off to help #1 son with a leaking roof problem and won't have time to figure out what happened. I saved just the "meat" in the word processor, but the narrative and "banter" is gone, gone, gone.<&^#$>

A round on me - and it appears that Cindy is coming through the door! Awwwright ..... should be a good day in spite of the "Bossman's" absence![swg]

Until the next time![tup]

  • Member since
    April, 2003
  • 300,865 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 08, 2006 6:14 PM
Good afternoon Tom and gents! I'll have a bottomless draught, and buy a round ... unless someone objects? Sorry to have missed the fun yesterday, but you all know where I was. Two of the members of the Chicago chapter of the Locomotive and Historical Society showed a slide presentation of a trip they took to Pennsylvania on an anual outing with another organization (I forget the name) whose claim to fame is visiting old train depots and other historical buildings of train heritage. This was a 3 1/2 day whirlwind trip by bus, which of course stopped in Altoona and Johnsburg, and many other towns (I'll type a list later). Sure wish I could have brought home the pictures and notes!

Hats off to Lars for his fine RDC and Budd Wikpedia posts, and certainly for his hard work e-mailing of the "Our Place" gang in preparation of the April 12th anniversary! Nice listing of 1950 active anthracite mines Mr. CM3. Good to see Dave, and his SP trivia! Glad you enjoyed "The Rebel" post Peter .. I aim's to please! BK, the Jet powered RDC pix were fantastic, and Mike provided some interting picture links. Nifty RDC pix Mr. Tom, and then great ENCORES on the Hoosier Line, Broadway Limited and British Railway adds! Rob provided some of my favorite ENCORES with his Toronto Street Co. posts! I love all things-Toronto (except their baseball team).

And now ....here's my ENCORE piece. Originally submitted 100 pages ago!

Caboose History -- Rail Classics Magazine Sept.1988

“Caboose,” a strange word for a strange railroad car that somehow survived more that a hundred years from the days of oil-burning lamps to the computer age. Origins of the car and the word are surrounded by as much legend as fact. One popular version dates the word back to the description of a ship’s galley derived from the Dutch word “kabuis.”

The use of cabooses started in the 1830s when railroads housed trainmen in boxcars or flatcars with shanties built on them. (new photo from IRM)

The addition of the cupola – a lookout post atop the car – is attributed to a conductor who discovered in 1863 that he could see his train much better if he sat atop boxes and watched through the hole in the roof of his boxcar. Cabooses served several functions. It was an office for the conductor. A “waybill” followed every car from origin to destination. The conductor kept the paperwork in the caboose.

The car also carried a brakeman and a flagman. In the days when trains did not have automatic air brakes, the engineer signaled the caboose with his whistle when he wanted to slow down or stop. The brakeman would climb out of the caboose and make his was forward on top of the cars, twisting the brake-wheels by using a stout club. A brakeman riding the engine would work his way toward the rear.

Once the train was stopped, the flagman would get off the caboose and walk back a safe distance with lanterns, flags and other warning devices to stop any approaching trains. Underway, the trainmen would sit up in the cupola and watch from smoke from overheated wheel journals, called hot-boxes, or other signs of trouble.

It was common for railroads to assign a caboose to a conductor for his exclusive use. Conductors took great pride in their cars – despite derogatory nick-names, including “crummy, doghouse, bone-breaker, snake wagon and hearse.” Conductors would decorate the interior of their cars with many touches of home, including curtains, family photos and, most importantly, ingredients for cooking meals that became a part of American folklore.

The car served as a “home away from home” for crewmen who slept in the car on trips away from their home terminals. Cabooses became a uniquely American tradition. Overseas, their use was rare or eliminated many years ago. Even in the United States, technological change began eliminating the need for cabooses before the turn of the century. The spread in the 1880s of the automatic air brake system invented by George Westinghouse eliminated the need for brakemen to manually set brakes. Air brakes were soon followed by the use of electric track circuits to activate signals, providing protection for trains and eliminating the need for flagmen.

Trains became longer, making it difficult for the conductor to see his train from the caboose. Freight cars became so high they blocked the view from the traditional cupola. Friction bearings were replaced by roller bearings, reducing the overheated journal and making visual detection by smoke unlikely. The heavy fast trains made on-board cooking hazardous and unnecessary. Cabooses were put into “pools| and not assigned to individual conductors. New labor agreements reduced hours of service and eliminated the need for cabooses for sleeping quarters as a result of lodging provided by the company.

Electronic “hotbox” and dragging equipment detectors were installed along main lines, which could check moving trains more efficiently and reliably than men in cabooses. Computers eliminated the conductor’s paperwork. Cabooses became expensive anachronisms.

The first major railroad in the United States to eliminate cabooses was the Florida East Coast Railway. Because of the technological advances and sweeping local labor changes, FEC dropped the cars in 1972. By the fall of 1982 the nation’s other major railroads and the United Transportation Union, which represents the trainmen who ride in cabooses, reached agreement on guidelines to begin eliminating the cars.

Studies by the Interstate Commerce Commission and a Presidential Emergency Board, which was appointed to settle the labor situation, concluded cabooses could be safely eliminated. The board estimated U.S. railroads would save approximately $400 million if cabooses were eliminated.

Union Pacific purchased its last cabooses in 1979 for $63,500 apiece. UP System has a fleet of about 1,500 cabooses. There are nearly 11,000 cabooses in service on all U.S. railroads. Cabooses today cost approximately $80,000. Other railroads which have begun eliminating cabooses include Conrail, Baltimore & Ohio, Norfolk Southern, Illinois Central Gulf, Seaboard System and Santa Fe.

[:)] keep in mind that this article was written almost 20 years ago! [:)]

Wow ....sure is incredible how many pix the photobucket lost 100 pages ago. It's a real crime that so much material was lost. I now only use the photobucket for any picture I did not take myself, and Rail Images for the rest.

Hope everyone is ready for a big Sunday Pix day. I've put together something special!

[:I] Jerry went to a psychiatrist.
"Doc," he said, "I've got trouble. Every time I get into bed, I think there's somebody under it. I'm going crazy!"
"Just put yourself in my hands for one year," said the shrink. "Come to me three times a week, and I'll cure your fears."
"How much do you charge?"
"A hundred dollars per visit."
"I'll sleep on it," said Jerry.
Six months later the doctor met Jerry on the street. "Why didn't you ever come to see me again?" asked the psychiatrist.
"For a hundred bucks a visit? A bartender cured me for free!"
"Is that so! How?"
"He told me to cut the legs off the bed! And nobody's under there now!" [:I]
  • Member since
    February, 2004
  • From: Chesterfield, Missouri, USA
  • 7,214 posts
Posted by siberianmo on Saturday, April 08, 2006 6:45 PM
Hello Cindy - I'm back and I appreciate your watching the place for me![tup]

Only one visitor since Lars stopped by this morning, eh[?] Doesn't speak very well of my repeated notices in the Sumamries about this weekend . . . . there's a "message" there, somewhere..[:O]

Really appreciate those 3 late nite Posts, Rob and of course your support of our ENCORE! Saturday!

Thanx to you Doub for the late afternoon visit and ENCORE! submission![tup] Anything that deals with cabooses is of interest to me and much appreciated![tup] While I understand the reasons for the elimination of the caboose from the freight train, they just aren't "complete" without one tagging behind., I'll ALWAYS run one on my model railraod - where I make the rules![swg]

Yes, Lars 'n BK came up with a great gesture yesterday and I think it turned out just fine. As someone once said, it's the thought that counts![swg] The Posts were well done and glad to see that I'm not the only one who enjoyed their efforts . . .

Should make mention of the Posts by Rob - Lars 'n Pete this morning![tup][tup]

Good times in Hermann, MO, eh Pete[?][swg] Well worth the 3 hour round trip . . . [tup]

Enjoy the weekend and I'll speak with y'all on Monday . . . unless there's a "rush" to the bar beforehand.[swg]

Tom[4:-)] [oX)]
Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
  • Member since
    February, 2005
  • From: Los Angeles
  • 1,619 posts
Posted by West Coast S on Saturday, April 08, 2006 7:07 PM
[:D] It's encore saturday all!! Good cabeese info Barndad, too bad they joined the ranks of the extinct in the quest of progress. SP had an interesting take on the caboose, why buy new when you can build? Home shops produced the CA1,2's the CA41/42's the first of all steel construction. By far were the unique were the passenger equiptment conversions, long after the demise of the Mckeen motor cars, the trailers were outfitted with conventional running gear and window modifications ande classified as branch cabooses. One survived in local service until 1964 and has been preserved with the goal to return to it's as built condition.

SP reassigned long obsolete wooden baggage and coaches as company cabooses, these were assigned to the supply trains that ran constant between the large shops and areas were supplies were not stored in great quanity. These operated every day, often in dedicated consits with equally obsolete freight equiptment. Though restricted, shortages and war could have them on mainline trains.

SP was also known to pull coaches from the commute fleet when cabooses were in short supply, often fruit blocks to Oakland were assigned these, perhaps for the benefit of would be clients in the agriculture industry. The use of lightweight car fromaly from the Sunset Limited or Challenger in similar service was not that unusual and those survived to be further converted into rolling police headquartes to prevet pilferage mainly on the Sunset Route, but I last observed several of these ex-SL cars on the Rio Grande in Utah of all places!!!

SP standarized starting post WWII with purchases from Pullman and International Car Company, so begain the era of the bay window, oddly, Cotton Belt, in 1959 adopted the extended vision design favored by several other roads. These cabooses, C45-C85 class served SP until the end and the last runs have still not occured due to sells to other operators. SP edicts required Daylight Paint be applied to the bay-ends and car ends effective October 1957, all classes were eventually so done, with the exception those operated by the Cotton Belt which retained the as built red colors to the very end . SP, ever the invenator also tested other combinations through the years. Cherry Red with Lark Grey graced several examples of thre class C79 during the late seventies and dispensed with the traditional
orange in favor of a reflective red that waa difficult to discern in bright light, but sure was visible at night!!! For the next run, SP returned to the traditional brown/orange. The first examples of the so called "transfer caboose" design were delivered in a updated version of the classic Daylight colors and were nicknamed "Sunbirds" Alas, these were the last new one's SP would recieve before elimination of all cabooses!!!

Well, there you have it in a nutshell, Tom and all, round of the best ale in the house please


SP the way it was in S scale
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Posted by siberianmo on Saturday, April 08, 2006 8:02 PM
G'evenin' . . .

Just some "housekeeping" issues - had to make a minor correction to the Summary, which of course once "edited" will call it up as the 1st to show up UNLESS someone Posts later on. Confused[?] You MUST acquire my "Navigating the Kalmbach Forums for Dummies!"[swg]

Nice to see ya this Saturday, Dave and appreciate the info on the SP cabooses (I detest the term, "cabeese") and of course the round!

Saw you "lurking" out there, Nick![swg]

Happy Railroading! Siberianmo
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Posted by pwolfe on Saturday, April 08, 2006 8:48 PM
Hi Tom and all.

A pint of Bathams and a very small steak after the excellent lunch in Hermann.It is a great place with wonderful views, a good atmosphere and company of the very best.
We had a great time TOM. [yeah][tup].

LARS Sorry to hear of the lost post a couple of mine have gone the same way recently.

Thanks DOUG for the caboose encore, well worth reading again and DAVE for the interesting SP caboose info [tup].
Looking forward to the photos tomorrow Doug.

TOM Another Bathams please to round off a great day[tup] PETE.
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Posted by trolleyboy on Saturday, April 08, 2006 9:11 PM
Good evening folks,got back in much later than I had originally planned[V]I'll pop for a round of wiggly pop for all that are interested ( beer of your choice for those who don't speak Canadian )[:D]

Tom You popped in a few rapid fire Encores I thought you were taking the day off, good to read them again anyway[tup]
Sounds like you and the Pete's enjoyed your day out together, that's grrreat as one particular tiger used to say.

Doug Great little caboose story,one question however what's wrong with our baseball team. LOL

DaveNice extra on the SP cabooses as well,good to see you around again this weekend.

Pete I'm not sure what actually became of those little sadle tankers,they were bought privatly so I'm not sure if they actually survived or not. Both the replacements are back running in Huntsville,I have some shots I took of them a few years back I'll post them tomorrow .

L:ars I hate it when I loose a post like that,you must not have been using the Bosses paste from your wordprossesor tip. That or Cindy's provocative ensemble perhaps made you hit the wrong key.[;)][:-^]

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Posted by trolleyboy on Saturday, April 08, 2006 9:21 PM
ENCORE ! ENCORE ! The third part of the TTC encores,this one also posted originally on page 249


The Toronto Transportation Commission 1921-1953 & The Toronto Transit Commission 1954 to the Preasant

With four different compnaies controlling nine different systems, of public transportation in Toronto, the city was in utter chaos. The cost to the public for rides to work, and home,was becomming inreasingly difficult to uphold so something had to be done.Citizens exercised their voting franchise on Jan 1 ,1920 and decided that all of Toronto's public transportation systems should be placed under the direction of one organization. By this vote, the Toronto Transportation Commision was created.

On sept 1,1921, the new Commission took over all the operations of the TRC and Civic Lines. It introduced the new Peter Witt streetcars which were a complete improvement over any of the older cars then in service. New Routes were introduced: trackwork was heavily replaced between 1921-23, and routes were aquired from the TSR in 1923, and the T&Y RR in 1927.

Other improvements included the withdrawl of many older cars and old horsecar trailers; the introduction of new Witt trailers on the busy Collage and Yonge street lines and the building of new loops and carhouse properties.Finally a new centralized repair facility was built at Bathurst street and Davenport road known as Hillcrest Shops to replace the worn-out scattered ones of the TRC shops at Front and Frederick Streets.

In 1938, the TTC was instrumental in the introduction of a new streetcar design known as the PCC ( presidents Conbferance committee car )which in one fell swoop,banished other streetcar designs to the past. During the war years, the TTC maintained it's fleet, ordered new cars ( PCC's ), introduced women to the workforce as car operators and trainmen ( even in the shops )and made plans for future expansion of the system.

In 1953, the Metropolitan system of government was introduced to Toronto and the Toronto Transportation Commission, which had the original mandate to run Toronto's public transit gained authority over the transit systems of the entire metro area, so was revamped into the Toronto Transit Commission.

In 1954 the Yonge Subwaysystem openned becomming the forerunner of modern rapid transit in Canda.In 1963came the University Subway,followed by the Bloor/Danforth line in 1966.The Spadina extention in 1978 and the Bloor-danforth extensions in 1968 and 1980. Extensions of the original Yonge line were completed in 1973-74. Other changes continue to this day Shepard Ave subway openned in 2003.b The TTC subsidiary Gray Coach Lines provides bus service outside of the Toronto area.Many of the older surface lines weer abandoned with the oppening of the Bloor-Danforth and yonge subway lines as car and truck traffic impeeded the steady floor of the transit system ( an estimated 1m people a day use the TTC subways alone ! )

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Posted by trolleyboy on Saturday, April 08, 2006 9:32 PM
I think one more encore before I shut it down for the day,been a long one and I'm beat.


A classic steam encore to wind out this saturday's broadcasting day for me.
Enjoy see many of you I hope for the picture fest tomorrow.


Classic CNR Steam # 10 CNR speacial Frights Part 2

Merriton Switcher

Niagara Falls - Merriton,later known as the Niagara Falls-Merriton Road switcher. Night assignment through 1952,became evening assignment during the first half of 1953. Normally ran as a caboose hop to Merriton.Switched cars off the NS&T transfer ( CN trains used front tracks of station. Thje NS&T passenger cars off the interurban district loaded behind the station and they owned the yard. Station was a standard GT type two located right in the Grimsby sub mainline,sane type as Museumm's rockwood statton. Merriton station burnt down in 1998).This train then lined up cars for road trains 464 and 461. After the last NS&T job arrived and the transfer was clear, the switcher switched out any set offs and placed them in the yard for the NS&T's specific customers. Untill spring of 1954, the switcher waited for an express car off #84,then helped 461 make a set off.Niagara Falls bound cars were put onto train 461 to allieviate the beed for a pilot on the switcher. Switcher followed 461 into Niagara Falls as a caboose hop. After the spring of 1954 the Merriton switcher began returning to the falls at midnight, powered by Consolidations until deisilization.

Pilot Assignments

Operated between Niagara Falls , Merriton , and Thorold. Typically a morning and afternoon assignment.Most often a heavy Mikado assigned to Niagara falls,but any available power laying over from other assignments could be used. This was a helper for the Thorold sub hill that climbed the escarpment by lock 7 of the Welland canal. 2-3.5% grade worst in S Ontario.

Toronto-St Catharines Fruit Extras

Less-than-carload express pickup train,operated in season.Engine several "blowers" and/pr express refridgerator cars and rider coach left Toronto in the morning.Empty cars were left at points along the Grimsby subdivision. Lifted carload traffic as well.Fruit was destined for Toronto and beyond. Normal power was a light Pacific through 1655 season. SW1200RS took over after1956 no coach at this point.

Hamiltin-St Catharines Fruit Extras

Operated Hamilton-Mimico via St Catharines during the peak fruit season,this train ran almost daily. Ordered for early afternoon out of Hamilton as a caboose hop,tender first! ( occationally empties were set off but not often )Proceeded to Jordan,St Catharines,or Merriton as ordered. Lifted loaded express refridgerator cars of fruit all the way to Winnona.Whenever possible,the dispatcher issued a work order for both tracks.Once off the Grimsby sub,train highballed to Mimico,with the exception of a stop at the canal on the Beach sub( Burlington Bay ). At Mimico, a new engine and caboose took over the train,which wasted little time in proceeding to Montreal.Usually powered by a light Pacific ( occationally a Mogul or Consolidation ) all engines assigned to Hamilton. Northerns or better took over at Mimico. Train was dieselized in 1958.

Enjoy Rob
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, April 09, 2006 5:54 AM
The following pictures were all taken by my parents (Don and Mary Secrist) while riding the Verde Canyon Railroad about a week ago.

The Verde Canyon has three types of passenger cars: Pullman Standard, Budd Stainless Steel and a refurbished AC & F caboose.

The Pullman Standard coaches, built in 1946 and 1947, were originally used in a commuter capacity along the eastern seaboard. Today, they are part of the Verde Canyon Railroad, as both coach and first-class cars.

Some of the Budd Stainless Steel cars built in the late 1930s and ‘40s, carried passengers along Santa Fe’s “El Capitan” route between Chicago and Los Angeles. All of these coaches are first-class cars.

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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, April 09, 2006 5:55 AM
The third passenger car is the historic caboose, not originally intended as a mode of transportation for passengers. This car holds a maximum of six people, all in the same party. Passengers on the caboose have access to the cupola seating with an aerial view of the train as it passes through the scenic canyon.

All cars have been updated for passenger comfort. Coach-class cars have two seats on each side of the center aisle and snack-bars. First class cars have plush, living-room-style seating, a full-service bar and complimentary appetizers. All cars are climate-controlled, have restrooms, panoramic windows and access open-air viewing cars. The train also meets ADA requirements.

In addition to great service, car attendants give passengers a glimpse into the rich history and unique geology of the chasm, and a keen insight into the canyon’s endangered feathered inhabitants.

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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, April 09, 2006 5:56 AM
Vintage FP7 locomotives, only two of 12 remaining in service in North America, are the mainstay of the Verde Canyon Railroad’s excursion train. After three months of restoration, the classic iron horses made their debut on the Verde Canyon Railroad on March 8, 1997.

(1)Second livery photo taken on August 16, 1971. Anchorage, Alaska, Alaska Railroad. (2) Anchorage, Alaska. September 15, 1983. Alaska Railroad. (3) Centennial, Wyoming, June 19, 1988. Mountain Diesel. (4) Laramie, Wyoming. September 4, 1990. Wyoming-Colorado Railroad. (5) Laramie, Wyoming, July 6, 1994. Wyoming-Colorado Railroad

Photographs by Alan Miller

Picture of a picture of today’s engine

Wonderful rainbow and consist shots (WTG dad!)

Arizona scenery along the Verde Canyon Railroad

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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, April 09, 2006 5:57 AM
Not only is a ride on the Verde Canyon Railroad a trip into a Southwest geological mecca rich with indigenous flora and fauna, it is a glimpse back in time, as the railroad was instrumental in the development of the Verde Valley. The standard gauge railway, owned by David L. Durbano, has always played an important role in the community. With the addition of the Verde Canyon excursion trains, which started on Friday, November 23, 1990, the Railroad has found a permanent place in the preservation of its history and the future of the Verde Valley.

The railroads of north central Arizona were originally built to support the bustling mining activities in Jerome. The first major mining claims, located on Mingus Mountain, were registered in 1876. At that time, the nearest railroad station was in Pueblo, Colorado, and the rugged area remained inaccessible, even by road.

The first narrow gauge, the Atlantic and Pacific Railroad, was completed in 1882, connecting Jerome to Ashfork. The line was eventually extended to Jerome Junction, now called Chino Valley. The extension was 25 miles long, had a gradient of four percent in places, and was built at a cost of just over $600,000.

The narrow gauge United Verde & Pacific Railroad, connecting Jerome, was abandoned in 1884 because of a series of mishaps including mine fires. The fires, uncontrollable for many years, made it evident that work could not be maintained underground, either economically of safely.

In 1888, William A. Clark, from Butte, Mont., purchased the United Verde Mine. Within seven years he was netting $1 million per month, but his geologists informed him that the largest lode was located directly under the Jerome smelter.

Construction began on a surface plant in Jerome, a tunnel transfer system known as the “Hopewell Tunnel’” loading facilities at Hope, and three new standard gauge railroads, one being the line presently traveled, connecting the Verde Valley to Drake.

The 38-mile Verde Canyon Railroad from Clarkdale to Drake, financed by Senator Clark and operated by the Santa Fe, Prescott and Phoenix Railroad, was started and completed on one year, from 1911 to 1912, a miraculous feat considering the equipment of the time. It took 250 men using 200 mules, picks and shovels, and lots of DuPont black powder explosives. Total cost of the railroad was $1.3 million. Today, the same railroad would cost in excess of $40 million.


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