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Forty Second Street NY Conduit Streetcars

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, July 4, 2021 2:28 PM

You are absolutely correct.  I just pulled up the picture on a large screen, and yes, I recognize the arch bridge as the Grand Central roadway bridge, not anything resembling an elevated railroad.

My apologies to you and the other readers.

The view is f rom 3rd Avenue, the first intersection is Lexington, and the bridge in the picture, and the details are there, is the Park Avenue roadway overpass.

Furthermore, when I use the Zoom enlarge feature of MSPaint, I can clearly see a 4thb and Madison NY & Harlem streetcar under the roadway viaduct, either just emerged from the tunnel and about to turn left on 42nd for the short trip west to Madison or doing the reverse.

Hats of to you!

Regarding the date, note that the only bus in the picture is a hood-in-front,

But I agree 1908 seems too early for the automobiles.  1928 does seem reasonable.  The streetcars would fit also, since no single-truck seem to seen.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Sunday, July 4, 2021 10:23 PM

I noticed a movie marquee on the left side that had Joan Crawford "Laughing Sinners", that was released in 1931.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, July 5, 2021 6:01 AM

In December 1935, the 4th and Madison line went bus, the first of the major "Green Lines" bus conversions.  By 1935, were not some autos showing signs of "streamlining?'   

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, July 5, 2021 6:16 AM

daveklepper
By 1935, were not some autos showing signs of "streamlining?'

Look at the pictures I linked that were from 1938 or later and look at the cars on the street.  Visibly more 'streamlined' compared even to cars of 1932.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, July 5, 2021 2:52 PM

Given that a 42nd Street Movie Theater probably was a 1st-run theater, we should probably date the photo at 1931.

And in thanks for the three excellent views:

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, July 6, 2021 4:34 AM

Ovwemod was probably correct that the bypass roadways, the arch roadway bridges over 42nd and 41st Street, and the ramp to street level at 40th Street were all part of the Grand Central Terminal overall design.  But completion of the roadways, bridges, and ramp waited until 1924.  The one-block elevated railway branch was in the way and was not closed until 1923.

Here is a 1921 photograph. also from Henry Raudenbush.  The streetcar ramp to the then-streetcar tunnel is to the right of the photo, starting south of 41st Street, with its portal, to be under the future ramp, just north of 40th Street.

For the 1936 conversion to the Robert Moses "Park Avenue Vehicular Tunnel," the Tunnel's portal and ramp were each moved one block south.  The ramp from the GCT roadways thus has a direct same-lanes connection.

 

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, July 6, 2021 8:42 AM

That is a perfect 'missing link' picture.  Does he have more that show the progress of the work?

Something possibly relevant to this is the way this road improvement was to be preserved in the ground plan of the proposed Hyperboloid project of 1954, kind of an Incinerated House version of GCT at the base of the twister.  You need to know what you're looking at to appreciate what Pei was doing -- there's all sorts of proportional retention in the very vestigial arrangements, infinitely more successful than the same general idea tried at the General Motors building.

Were it not for the specific site, this would be one of the greatest 'unbuilt regrets' of any Manhattan project; would that something of that distinction had been part of the Penn Station Replacement once that became inevitable.

Vs. this

 

 

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, July 6, 2021 9:01 AM

.

Got to a computer, and put it in the correct prior-post context.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, July 6, 2021 9:50 AM

Not fair.  Not like U-tube, wehere you can just look, enjoy, and leave.

They ask too many questions in my opinion.

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, July 6, 2021 10:19 AM

Sorry, I thought it would just render the picture of MSG going up.  See the edited post for the pictures in context.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, September 14, 2021 7:03 AM

More regarding conduit:   RE: Conduit complications

 

Henry Raudenbush

More to that:  NY Metropolitan Ry built a branch off of the Broadway cable lineline, which ran on 232rd St from Broadway to Lexington Ave, then way up Lexinton to 104th Street.   Previously, 23 St had a horsecar line, but cable, with a centered conduit, was installed on those two long blocks.  Not too complex.  The Fun began a couple of years later, when the 23rd St Crosstown line was equipped for conduit electric operation.  The Electric conduit was installed between the cable conduit and one track rail.  This left a narrow strip of pavement which had to be stood on cast iron legs between the cables and the electric contact rail.  At Fourth (Park) avenue, this crossed the 4th & Madison line, which was also conduit electric.  There were doulde track connecting curves with conduit in the NW and SW quadrants at 23rd and Park.   A diagram of this mess was printed in the Electric Railway issue of Cassier’s Magazine, (which was reprinted by the Light Railway Transport League in the 1950’s.)    A rough count shows that this included:    36 crossings of track rails (frogs)


                    16 crossings of cable conduit and rail
                    46 crossings of electric conduit and rail
                    8 crossings of cable and electric conduit
                    7 crossings of 2 electric conduits
Imagine that the company expected that all this investment –
and subsequent upkeep (to say nothing of operation)  –
could be paid out of 5 cent fares! 
It was not. 
 
Hank
               
 
...
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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, September 22, 2021 8:46 PM

Relieve Your Boredom

Inb

Jack May

     
,
Here's a quick way to earn a buck.
 

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