Classic trains photos from the Denver Public Library

[rcdrye]

133 Km/h is about right.

[Overmod]

133mph is ridiculously high both for the equipment or the locomotive.  It is possible that this refers to the maximum speed (translated, somewhat meaninglessly, from rotational speed) the design balancing was done for.  Even that seems high.

110mph sounds like the service balance speed + 10% factor.  That would indicate the locomotive would not produce damaging augment at 100mph and showed no resonances or strange behavior above that.  Still doesn't mean steam would run it that fast with a train.

Top speed of C&O 614, a roughly comparable design but with vastly improved running gear, was not over 100mph.  It would be interesting to see instrumented testing of the two GS locomotives given the Timken thin-section roller-bearing rods and other lighter-weight motionwork, but I think there would be quite a few more interesting stories and even tall tales told if there had been a hugeugeuge advantage in practice.  Perhaps part of the fallout from the T1 Trust developments is that we can cozen Doyle et al. into putting a set on 4449...

[Jones1945]

rcdrye

SP allowed a maximum speed of 75 in the Salinas Valley.

Thanks, rcdrye. Speaking of the top speed of Coast Daylight and the locomotives, someone put an exact figure, 133 mph, on the wiki page of GS-4! I don't know if there is any source to support such a claim, probably an imaginary event. It was corrected to 110 mph, the maximum design speed of GS-4 in July 2019. The time table speed limit, 75 mph, is correctly recorded on the wiki page.

[rcdrye]

Some cars with 4-TC-5s lasted into Amtrak service.  I rode a San Joaquin in 1975 with three recently refurbished "Tomato Can" coaches, trailing a deadhead twin-unit articulated going to Oakland that was put back in service later that year.  The all-SP consist (FP7-F7B up front) was allowed the full 79 MPH on Santa Fe's Valley line.

SP allowed a maximum speed of 75 in the Salinas Valley.  All of the SP's EMD passenger engines, including E7-E9 units and SDP45s, had 60:17 gear ratios which were good for around 77 MPH (the SDP45's got the normal freight 62:15 as they joined the Commute Pool in the 1970s).  The PAs were geared 64:19 for about 78MPH.  Commute Pool GP9s were geared 62:15 for about 65 MPH.  I can't find a table of gear ratios for the Westinghouse 370 motors on SP's Train Masters, but they were also geared for around 65 MPH.

[Jones1945]

M636C

There are some very nice shots of the Daylights in both directions on Cuesta grade here:

https://spdaylight.net/Service.html

That is a great website! It shows SP was so determined to create the best passenger train in the world. On the East Coast, the only all-coach train that was as luxurious as Daylight was probably the NYC Empire State Express. On the West Coast, the Lark was as fine as the 20th Century Ltd. There were so many great all-coach streamliners in the Midwest, it wasn't easy to tell which train was the best. C&O's Chessie would have been the best of the best "all-coach" train in the world, but too bad it never happened.

My favorite train, the first generation of PRR Trail Blazer, looked like a commuter when compared with the Coast Daylight. My fantasy Trail Blazer was a trainset consist of rebuilt Pullman parlor coaches on 6-wheel trucks. 

Overmod

John Keil seems to have thought that the SP version of this was different 'enough' from the Pullman 43-R that he advertised his (stunningly excellent) O scale version separately.  (He called them, endearingly, 'Napolean' Hat trucks...)

I remain somewhat awestruck that a high-speed service would preferentially use plain bearings, Isothermos or otherwise, in an otherwise modern truck of this design...

You are right, those are 4-TC-5 truck. I noted the design of the journal box on the 4-TC-5 truck is different from the 43-R. I thought SP's Pullman built prewar streamlined coaches used the SP's spring-pad lubricators instead of roller bearings on the 43-R. IIRC, the top speed of Coast Daylight on the time table was 70mph, friction bearings were good enough to handle it I guess? 

Miningman

Watched 'The Undercover Man' last night, a 1949 movie starring Glenn Ford and at the end there is a wide shot of a Daylight with a GS-4 and its train pulling out from a standing start and as it pans out even further there is a trio or quad of PA's coming into the station.  Now that was exciting! Did the 'go back' loop about six times and slowed it down. The way it was 1949 in real time. Then the dog gave me the 'ok that's enough look'. 

I found a short clip of this movie's beginning, there is a shot of GS-4 pulling heavyweight cars. I am gonna find the full movie! 

[Miningman]

As long as there is dialogue she is content! If I mute due to commercials she gets real peeved and will leave until the voices come back. 

[Flintlock76]

If Scamp's anything like Ginger The Attack Basset she's probably wondering why you don't have something more interesting on, like "The Food Network."  

[Miningman]

My dog Scamp arising from her movie watching perch to give me the gears about six rewinding and playbacks of the same thing. Yeesh. 

[Miningman]

Watched 'The Undercover Man' last night, a 1949 movie starring Glenn Ford and at the end there is a wide shot of a Daylight with a GS-4 and its train pulling out from a standing start and as it pans out even further there is a trio or quad of PA's coming into the station.  Now that was exciting! Did the 'go back' loop about six times and slowed it down. The way it was 1949 in real time. Then the dog gave me the 'ok that's enough look'. 

 

[Overmod]

Jones1945

Prewar Pullman streamlined coaches equipped with the short-lived Pullman 43-R truck. 

John Keil seems to have thought that the SP version of this was different 'enough' from the Pullman 43-R that he advertised his (stunningly excellent) O scale version separately.  (He called them, endearingly, 'Napolean' Hat trucks...)

I remain somewhat awestruck that a high-speed service would preferentially use plain bearings, Isothermos or otherwise, in an otherwise modern truck of this design...

[Overmod]

BaltACD

... trains descending grades were bathed in brake smoke - steel brake shoes compressed against steel wheels that all had a 'sheen' of oil (from overfilled journal boxes, many with faulty axle seals) as well as [from] trains operating in the territory that didn't require braking and oil pickup from the top of the rail,

It had not occurred to me to wonder about this as a major component of brake smoke in earlier days!  My whole experience has been with composite or composition shoes of some type, on mostly roller-bearing equipment... but even there, I'd expect the contribution of curve greasers (which surely belong in your list) would contribute some 'blue' to the view.

Incidentally the shoes are not steel, they are cast iron, intentionally softer (so as not to wear the hardened wheel tread and fillet, sacrificially wearing instead and ablating some heat in so doing) but not so soft as to hold abrasive contaminants (as one of the earlier 'matrix' composite shoe faces might do).

What was notable about earlier braking, particularly on passenger trains, were the sparks that went along with the smoke.  There was a spectacular Steinheimer photograph, shot as a time exposure so the train was a horizontal streak of speed, that was published in Trains --I think in the early '70s -- along with a poem.  This showed the sparks dramatically and deserves to be seen.

[M636C]

There are some very nice shots of the Daylights in both directions on Cuesta grade here:

https://spdaylight.net/Service.html

You need to scroll down quite a long way. Of course you might get distracted on the way....  isn't Kodachrome wonderful!

Peter

[Jones1945]

Thank you rcdrye and Balt for the observation and additional information that added so much value to the post!

More pics were taken at San Luis Obispo:

 First #99, The Daylight. Photographed: San Luis Obispo, Cal., July 23, 1938.

https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/54451/rec/7

The pic is perfect if that is my favorite SP 4-10-2 instead of a 2-10-2. 

 Second #99, Daylight; 30 MPH. Photographed:  San Luis Obispo, Cal., July 23, 1938.

https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/54464/rec/33

The second section of Coast Daylight, note the heavyweight equipment. 

Three-quarter view of right side of engine, from front end. Photographed: San Luis Obispo, Cal., July 23, 1938.

https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/53787/rec/10

The GS-3 is my favorite GS Class. Problem-free, powerful, and colorful. The streamlining really hit the spot. The single-headlight sliver smokebox was simple and elegant, it stands out under bright "daylight"! 

Train #99, Daylight; 13 cars. Photographed: San Luis Obispo, Cal., July 26, 1937.

https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/54026/rec/27

Chair car 2425, lettered "The Challenger". Photographed: San Luis  Obispo, Cal., July 26, 1937.

https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/53860/rec/19

Prewar Pullman streamlined coaches equipped with the short-lived Pullman 43-R truck. 

"Daylight" parlor observation car 2950. Photographed: San Luis Obispo, Cal., July 26, 1937.

https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/53878/rec/21

 

[BaltACD]

rcdrye

Eastbound (southbound), Cuesta drops quite hard into the basin where San Luis Obispo sits.  Back in the early 1970s when SP SDP45s were still assigned to Coast Line trains you could see a lot of heat going up from the dynamic brake grids, and the brake shoes still took a beating.

Back in the days before effective dynamic braking was the prefered method - trains descending grades were bathed in brake smoke - steel brake shoes compressed against steel wheels that all had a 'sheen' of oil (from overfilled journal boxes, many with faulty axle seals) as well as trains operating in the territory that didn't require brakeing and oil pickup from the top of the rail, many with retainers set to keep some car's brakes continuously applied - even when the brake valve was in 'Release'.

[rcdrye]

Eastbound (southbound), Cuesta drops quite hard into the basin where San Luis Obispo sits.  Back in the early 1970s when SP SDP45s were still assigned to Coast Line trains you could see a lot of heat going up from the dynamic brake grids, and the brake shoes still took a beating.

[BaltACD]

Jones1945

 

Second #76, The Lark; 5 MPH. Photographed:  arriving at San Luis Obispo, Cal., July 26, 1937.

https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/54463/rec/29

Two SP 2-10-2 doubleheading for a passenger train.

And a lot of brake smoke from the train.....

[rcdrye]

SP routinely used 2-10-2s on Cuesta grade north of San Luis Obispo, sometimes doubleheading with the regular road power between SLO or Paso Robles, sometimes swapping out the road power.  Except for Cuesta  and some hills just north of LA the Coast route is pretty flat.

[Jones1945]

 

Train #19, The Chief; engine equipped with experimental smoke lifter; 13 cars, 35 MPH. Photographed:  east of La Junta, Colo., February 27, 1938.

https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/59073/rec/273

Santa Fe 3460 Class Hudson with a strange-looking "skyline". 

 

Second #76, The Lark; 5 MPH. Photographed:  arriving at San Luis Obispo, Cal., July 26, 1937.

https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/54463/rec/29

Two SP 2-10-2 doubleheading for a passenger train.

[Jones1945]

BaltACD

In addition to the Denver Library - the Barringer Collection is worth one's time

https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/albums/ 

Thank you for the link! I found a "new old pic" of PRR S1 #6100, very nice!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/49102575172/in/album-72157640554237773/

I wish all these websites would keep uploading every single photo they got.

[M636C]

I am disappointed that only 10000 of the 20800 images are actually available.

These are presumably the "best' pictorially of the photographs.

Strangely, one photograph from Switzerland, two from Italy and one from France are able to be found through the "location selector" on the left hand side of the search screen.

I wonder why all the images are no longer available?

Peter

[BaltACD]

In addition to the Denver Library - the Barringer Collection is worth one's time

https://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/albums/

[Jones1945]

Thanks for that, Dave. How about pre-war betterment coaches like the P70kr and P70ksr? I note they were using the original 2D-P5 truck equipped with roller bearing journal boxes. Some of them were still in use until the 1970s. Have you ever ridden on them and how was the riding quality? 

Coach 4301. Photographed: at Chicago, Ill., July 25, 1940.

https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/62278/rec/67

Baggage-chair car 8321. Photographed: at Chicago, Ill., July 25, 1950 (Must be a typo, It should be 1940. A betterment Baggage-lounge car)

https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/62275/rec/63

[daveklepper]

I have commented earlier that the PRR post-WWII 44-seat coaches were one of the two very most comfortable overnight coaches I ever experienced, the only equal being the El-Cap hi-levels, also used on the SF Chief.  UP's were almost as good, and when PRR's rusted-out, PC bought some from UP.

My overnight coach NY - Detroit trips were on the Red Arrow, not the faster Wolverine, accordingly.  For daytime travel, the Empire State Express was fine.

[Jones1945]

daveklepper

I was warmed by the Trail Blazer photo, with a K4 bereft of streamlining.  By the time I got to ride the Trail Blazer, 1952, I rode behind a T-1.  Interesting though that both in 1940, time of the photo, and 1952, the schedule was, if memory is correct, 17 hours.  And the Broadway was 16, also in steam west of Harrisburg.

 

I envy you, Dave! PRR T1 hauling the Trail Blazer was one of the best things ever happened. The TrailBlazer was re-equipped in 1948 so I bet you were riding on the 44-seat  P85b coach. I heard that they were roomy and the ride was smooth.  

[daveklepper]

I was warmed by the Trail Blazer photo, with a K4 bereft of streamlining.  By the time I got to ride the Trail Blazer, 1952, I rode behind a T-1.  Interesting though that both in 1940, time of the photo, and 1952, the schedule was, if memory is correct, 17 hours.  And the Broadway was 16, also in steam west of Harrisburg.

[M636C]

It occurs to me that we can now illustrate the O-7 and O-8 classes of GN Mikado...

O-7 3394 in 1931 with the 2-6-8-0 boiler

3398 with an O-8 boiler in 1938...

Peter

[M636C]

This shines no light on that but Otto Perry's bio at Denver Library says he was in the army https://history.denverlibrary.org/colorado-biographies/otto-perry-1894-1970

while a paragraph in The Postal Record sort of says he was in the navy.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/imgsrv/image?id=uiug.30112109797495;seq=94;size=200;rotation=0

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112109797495&view=1up&seq=94

 

Having checked both of the references, I'd prefer to trust the "Postal Record" which presumably received the information from Otto himself.

 

The Navy is certainly more likely to have taken him to China, although the Postal Record suggests that he was involved in Atlantic Convoys. It is possible that he was posted to the Pacific Fleet after the armistice and made one trip to China. The USA was certainly involved in the Russian Civil War and a ship may well have visited China before returning to the USA.

 

Beijing is a long way from the coast, however.

 

I guess Otto could have been in the Marines, which might explain the confusion in the Museum records.

Either way, it seems that a trip to Beijing was arranged. This was almost certainly not by train, or we would have photos of those trains too.

 

Importantly he made it back to Denver to cover a very important period in rail history.

 

Peter

[MidlandMike]

I have spent many an hour on the DPL photo site, mainly for Colorado narrow gauge and the Colorado Midland.

[Jones1945]

I am really grateful that Otto Perry has taken some of the earliest photos of PRR Trail Blazer. The train was still short enough to be handled by a single K4s. The consist can be as long as 14 cars in its heyday.

Train #77, The Trail Blazer; engine equipped with smoke deflectors; 8 cars. Photographed: in Chicago, Ill., August 10, 1939.

https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/86783

Train #76, The Trail Blazer; 9 cars, 37 MPH. Photographed: leaving Chicago, Ill., July 25, 1940.

https://digital.denverlibrary.org/digital/collection/p15330coll22/id/86561

[Miningman]

Posted by M636C on Wednesday, August 12, 2020 5:41 AM

I understand that Otto Perry was a postman with the US Postal Service in Denver and was able to get out and photograph trains around Denver, but as an enthusiast travelled all over the USA and in the 1930s, to Europe.

However in 1917, Otto spent what appears to have been a single day in Beijing, China and visited the North station which served trains to the Great Wall.He was able to photograph a fairly new Alco 2-8-0 and an older Chinese built 2-6-0

I assume that he was with the US Armed services at this time, but I'd be grateful if any light could be shone on this visit.

Peter

This shines no light on that but Otto Perry's bio at Denver Library says he was in the army https://history.denverlibrary.org/colorado-biographies/otto-perry-1894-1970

while a paragraph in The Postal Record sort of says he was in the navy.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/imgsrv/image?id=uiug.30112109797495;seq=94;size=200;rotation=0

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112109797495&view=1up&seq=94