Fateful Trip , passengers of Destiny.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 31, 2020 1:43 AM

I should have noted that Rich Allman's church is approximately across a street from the ex-PRR Bryn Mawr station on SEPTA's ex-PRR Paoli and now Downingtown and hopefully Lancaster or even Harrisburg line, and has an excellent organ and an outstanding music program including evening concerts.  I did at times travel from New York and back specifically for concerts.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, March 31, 2020 6:26 PM

David, those must have been some great concerts for you to travel all the way from New York to Bryn Mawr, even if you got two train rides along with them! 

What was more fun, the concerts or the train rides?

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 31, 2020 9:37 PM

Hard Question to answer. The music director chose music that was not well known but extremely high quality, usually including combinations of organ and instruments and chorus.

The following email was received yesterday, and when have a few more moments to spare I will go back and make the corrections:

On 3/31/20, Edwin davison <info@davisonphoto.com> wrote:
> Many thanks for the information, much of which we would know. If I could ask
> for a couple of further corrections, when you mention Father Browne would
> you please append SJ after his name to signify the order. Also the web
> information for this images is at www.titanicphotographs.com and
www.fatherbrowne.com
>
> Edwin Davison

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, April 2, 2020 3:10 AM

The Father Frank Browne (SJ) files are even more interesting than the Titanic files!  There is no question in my mind that the good Father was a railfan, with a whole section devoted to trains.  Here is one picture, not in any way altered by me:

The information given is Engine 406, photographed 1944.

Brian Solomon should be interested in all these photos and probably can provide further identification.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, April 2, 2020 8:36 AM

WOW!

Father Browne's rail pictures probably call for a book of their own!

"Railfanning With Father Browne."  There you go!  

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Posted by M636C on Thursday, April 2, 2020 9:22 AM

daveklepper

The Father Frank Browne (SJ) files are even more interesting than the Titanic files!  There is no question in my mind that the good Father was a railfan, with a whole section devoted to trains.  Here is one picture, not in any way altered by me:

The information given is Engine 406, photographed 1944.

Brian Solomon should be interested in all these photos and probably can provide further identification.

 

The 400s were built for the Great Southern and Western Railway and were mainly used on the trains on the main line between Dublin and Cork. 400 was built in 1916 and was based on the English Great Western Railway Star class, a superheated four cylinder simple. Four were built by the GSWR workshops at Inchicore and six by Armsrong Whitworth in England, apart from 400, between 1921 and 1923.

They were a disappointment in their original form and 400, 404 and 408 were scrapped by 1930. The others were rebuilt with two cylinders, 401,402 and 406 having 28" stroke but the others retained the 26" stroke from the four cylinder design. 401 and 406 had Caprotti poppet valves, but 401 was rebuilt with piston valves. A number were rebuilt with larger boilers.

The railways in Ireland were amalgamated in November 1924.

Since the GSWR was the largest system in the merger, GSWR locomotives maintained their numbers on the GSR, and later on the CIE.

Peter

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, April 3, 2020 5:52 AM

Here is 409:

And here's a New Doesel railcar with a leaky roof!

 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, April 4, 2020 8:40 PM

With that first shot it looks like Father Browne was ahead of his time, most railfan photographers back then didn't bother with 3/4 back end shots.  This one looks good!

That lady with the umbrella!  "Adapt, improvise, and overcome!"

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Posted by MidlandMike on Saturday, April 4, 2020 10:22 PM

I guessed the lady had the umbrella for shade from the sun coming in on that side.  The gentleman in front of her (the operator?) seems to be on the outside of the window.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, April 5, 2020 2:24 AM

I like the idea that he was a steam fan and took the picture becauses of a leaky roof.  And what you think is the left edge of the a window is clearly a pole within the car body.  Look at the fillet ar rhe top of the pole and compare with fillet at the right side of the window, which is indeed the reverse of the real left side of the window.

This was a post-WWII diesel railcar, amd the operatpr would not be outside.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, April 5, 2020 3:39 AM

In general. I wish to correct Father Frank Browne JG's images only to correct fading due to age or other specific imperfections like tears or holes or dirt.  But there is one exception:

The photo from the website:

The modification I would like:

Can you understand why?  I think if the good Father were still alive, I could convince him that a black daytine sky is a real forboding of doom, and I would not like to be resonsible for publishing such an image.  But the picture is a great one.  Does my modification loose any of its greatness?  Comments requested.

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Posted by M636C on Sunday, April 5, 2020 6:27 AM

daveklepper

And here's a New Diesel railcar with a leaky roof!

I think the driver is indeed beyond a window, a glazed partition between the cab and the  first class passenger compartment.

The railcar in question is:

These appear to be the CIE version of the AEC railcars built for the Great Northern Railway of Ireland shortly after WWII. A feature of the GNRI cars was the glazed partition at the cab end, which provided a view ahead at the leading end and an observation saloon at the rear. These were interesting mechanically, with the diesel engines and transmissions mounted on each side, one side driving the forward truck and the other side the rear truck. The final drives were like those on a Shay locomotive but only the two inner axles were driven. Two power cars could haul two trailer cars.

And I favour the sunshade theory of the umbrella.

Peter

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, April 5, 2020 8:05 AM

I stand corrected.  Thank you.  Is your photo of the two cars also the one in Father Frank Browne SJ Collection?  Or did you obtain it elsewhere and where?  And I gather the diesel was a flat design under the floor?

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, April 5, 2020 8:15 AM

I should add, however, that I have never seen an umbrella opened in a train or transit vehicle for use as a sunshade.

I have seen one opened in a bus once and in a railroad coach once.  But I have to admit it was not rain through a leaky roof in either case but a leaky air-conditioning system.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, April 5, 2020 8:47 AM

daveklepper
And I gather the diesel was a flat design under the floor?

There is actually one of those 'how to...' videos from the Fifties on YouTube that tells how to start and run early versions of these railcars; it contains a number of detail views of the powerplants and gearboxes as installed.

Here's the introduction:

Note that on this type (I believe these were Derby lightweights), the engines are 'bus engines' but run flat (as on a number of American buses, and on RDCs).  This is different from a 'pancake' or horizontally-opposed 'boxer' engine design.  Note the "BUT" on the control gear; this was a joint venture between AEG and Leyland.

Here's the section dealing with faults that shows what to do with some of the 'very expensive' equipment under the car...

Note the 'other type' of railcar at about 34:00 - is this a Metropolitan-Cammell?

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Posted by M636C on Sunday, April 5, 2020 8:59 AM

daveklepper

I stand corrected.  Thank you.  Is your photo of the two cars also the one in Father Frank Browne SJ Collection?  Or did you obtain it elsewhere and where?  And I gather the diesel was a flat design under the floor?

 
Yes, the photo is from the Father Browne collection.
 
No, I believe the diesel engines were upright. They were mounted under the floor but at the outer edge of the floor just inboard of the body side. I think they were standard AEC Bus engines of 9.6 litres and 125 HP.
 
Peter
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Posted by M636C on Sunday, April 5, 2020 9:08 AM

daveklepper

In general. I wish to correct Father Frank Browne JG's images only to correct fading due to age or other specific imperfections like tears or holes or dirt.  But there is one exception:

The photo from the website:

The modification I would like:

Can you understand why?  I think if the good Father were still alive, I could convince him that a black daytine sky is a real forboding of doom, and I would not like to be resonsible for publishing such an image.  But the picture is a great one.  Does my modification loose any of its greatness?  Comments requested.

 
I think the locomotive is from Northern Ireland, from the Northern Counties Committee, probably a class U2...
 
 
 
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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, April 5, 2020 11:25 AM

M636C
No, I believe the diesel engines were upright. They were mounted under the floor but at the outer edge of the floor just inboard of the body side. I think they were standard AEC Bus engines of 9.6 litres and 125 HP.

These were MEDs, right?  If I remember correctly these were re-engined to have the two AEG engines and this might explain why they would be upright and not flat.  There is also a later class (from 1957) that had two AEG (and later slightly more powerful Rolls-Royce) engines.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, April 5, 2020 4:15 PM

daveklepper

In general. I wish to correct Father Frank Browne JG's images only to correct fading due to age or other specific imperfections like tears or holes or dirt.  But there is one exception:

The photo from the website:

The modification I would like:

Can you understand why?  I think if the good Father were still alive, I could convince him that a black daytine sky is a real forboding of doom, and I would not like to be resonsible for publishing such an image.  But the picture is a great one.  Does my modification loose any of its greatness?  Comments requested.

 

This is tough, I'm not sure what to think, I may do a bit of thinking out loud, so bear with me.

Photo One, the more "contrasty" of the two.  The first things my eyes are drawn to are the clouds, with the dark sky they really "pop" out at you.  Photo Two, my eyes are drawn to the locomotive, everything else is secondary.  

As a railfan I should choose #2, since I could care less about clouds.  But #1's a bit more "artsy," for lack of a better term. 

Honestly I like them both!  I'd have to flip a coin if I had to choose one!

I do wonder what Father Brown used when he took the shot.  Panchromatic or orthochromatic film?  They were both available at the time.  A yellow or red filter, or just a plain lens?  Film and lens options in black and white photography will affect the finished product. 

Anyway, thanks for that color shot M636C, that's a beautiful engine!

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Posted by M636C on Sunday, April 5, 2020 8:12 PM

Overmod

 

 
M636C
No, I believe the diesel engines were upright. They were mounted under the floor but at the outer edge of the floor just inboard of the body side. I think they were standard AEC Bus engines of 9.6 litres and 125 HP.

 
I don't claim to be an expert on Irish Diesel Multiple Units.
 
However, I understood that Multi-Engine Diesel (MED) was a description of suburban railcars that ran on the NIR out of Belfast.
 
The engine builder was the Associated Equipment Company (AEC). It was "Associated" with the London General Omnibus Company and the logo was similar to that used by London Transport after it absorbed the LGOC.
 
AEG is a German electrical company that translates as "General Electric Company" although it was not associated with GE.
 
The cars we are discussing were initially built for the GNRI and were based on railcars built by AEC for the the English Great Western Railway. CIE bought some to the same design and took over a share of those of the GNRI when it was split up between CIE and NIR.
 
The design thus dates back to the late 1930s. By placing the engines upright on the side of the vehicle, the crankshaft (and gearbox) could be lined up with the driveshaft along the side to the truck, all of these easily accessible from the side (once the streamlined panels were removed).
 
The CIE railcars pictured in this thread had all this exposed with just a wire mesh cover to protect the engine.
 
Flat versions of the engine were developed for underfloor engined buses in the late 1940s and 1950s and these were used on British Railways cars, partly because the BR clearances were more restricted than those in Ireland (and those on the former broad gauge lines of the GWR).
 
The underfloor version allowed a central driveshaft which looked neater than the Irish version without the streamlined covering.
 
Peter
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Posted by Erik_Mag on Sunday, April 5, 2020 11:52 PM

M636C

 

AEG is a German electrical company that translates as "General Electric Company" although it was not associated with GE.
 

Similar to how ASEA (now the "A" in ABB) translates into General Swedish Electric Company, though the Swedish word for Company is usually abreviated as "AB".

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, April 6, 2020 12:53 AM

Flintlock, thanks for responding and your comments.  Pretty certain Father Browne, SJ, used Plus-X Panchromatic or its equivalent with a red filter.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, April 6, 2020 6:45 AM

I would like to see Father Frank Browne SJ'a trains photos presented in an orderly manner in a printable pdf, much as what we download for free on this website and what I have done for distribution to friends and those requesting from Jack May's many trip reports.  Brian Solomon has the knowledge and skill to do this by himself.

If I were to do it, I'd need a collaborator (or collaborators) to put the pix in logical order, show the location each photo on a map of the oveall Irish railway system(s) and add any necessary comment to the good father's comment  for each photograph.

Anyone wanting one or more of the Jack May trip pdfs can request at 

daveklepper@yahoo.com

If you want all, it may take several days.  Otherwise, Eastern Eureope?  UK?  USA Streetcar?

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, April 6, 2020 11:14 AM

daveklepper
I would like to see Father Frank Browne SJ'a trains photos presented in an orderly manner in a printable PDF ...

I'm ASSuming (as you were the one forwarding the e-mail) that you have secured the necessary full written permissions from Davison for rights and use of the material.  It seems to me that they would be the appropriate source both to put together and to host the resulting files.

The work then becomes ordering the pictures to go in the 'collections' in order referenced by their existing site URLs -- and providing any 'corrected' versions of the images to the Davison site webmasters or whoever for inclusion.  Then sending appropriately indexed files with the updated information to be appended via metadata... with their understanding on how to format it, use it, and allocate any rights to the associated novel intellectual-property content.

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Posted by M636C on Monday, April 6, 2020 7:37 PM

Overmod

 

daveklepper
I would like to see Father Frank Browne SJ'a trains photos presented in an orderly manner in a printable PDF ...

 

I'm ASSuming (as you were the one forwarding the e-mail) that you have secured the necessary full written permissions from Davison for rights and use of the material.  It seems to me that they would be the appropriate source both to put together and to host the resulting files.

The work then becomes ordering the pictures to go in the 'collections' in order referenced by their existing site URLs -- and providing any 'corrected' versions of the images to the Davison site webmasters or whoever for inclusion.  Then sending appropriately indexed files with the updated information to be appended via metadata... with their understanding on how to format it, use it, and allocate any rights to the associated novel intellectual-property content.

 

Would all of those permissions be required for what is essentially private non commercial use?

More significantly, there appear to be numerous errors in the captions as reproduced on the website. The photo of the 4-4-0 I identified as an NCC U2 class (an inside cylinder 4-4-0) was identified as a GSR 400 series, (an outside cylinder 4-6-0). This leads me to believe that at least some of the captions were written after the photos were recovered, and not by the photographer.

Peter

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, April 6, 2020 10:28 PM

All the above makes sense.  Possibly the best course is simply to suggest to the Davison Brothers that the book would be a winner and that others on this Forum and I would be happy to help in any way, including some possible corrections.

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, April 11, 2020 12:35 PM

Another idea:  You who have copied some of the pictures into your hard-drive and/or USB device, tell us which one or two pictures mean most to you and why and post them on this thread.  Eventually, there will me material for book that will go beyond just the pictures.  Some  current views of the locations might also be of great interest.

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, April 11, 2020 10:14 PM

Here are two of my favorites, the top the Dublin - Cork train, the bottom the "EnterpriseP Dublin - Belfast - Cork, Irish steam expresses.

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Posted by M636C on Sunday, April 12, 2020 7:47 AM

daveklepper

 

Here are two of my favorites,  the bottom the "Enterprise" Dublin - Belfast, Irish steam expresses.

 

While the present day Enterprise runs between Belfast and Dublin, in the 1950s it ran right through from Belfast to Cork via Dublin, as indicated by the curved nameplate on the locomotive smokebox.

The locomotive, CIE 402 was generally recognised as the best of its class, hence it was used on the premier train of the day. It had 28" stroke cylinders, while most of the conversions from four cylinders retained the original 26" stroke.

The train was worked from Belfast to Dublin by the large 4-4-0s of the Great Northern Railway of Ireland, so this photo is between Dublin and Cork in the 1950s.

So the train ran the full length of Ireland from Belfast in Northern Ireland to Cork in the south of the Republic. Cork was where the Titanic called in to drop Father Browne off.

I don't think I've ever seen the nameplate for the Northbound train which presumably read "Cork-Dublin-Belfast". The plates were carried on both the CIE and GNRI locomotives.

This train was converted to diesel operation in the late 1950s using the AEC railcars of the GNRI, generally similar to the CIE cars illustrated earlier in this thread, with a trailer buffet car for refreshments.

Peter

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, April 12, 2020 8:54 AM

Thanks, and please post some pistures important to you, your own or those of Father Frank Browne SJ.  Thanks.

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