Interesting history behind that photograph.
It was taken by a young Jesuit seminarian named Father Frank Browne. Father Browne called it "The Titanic Special," which it certainly was, but it typically went by the name "The Boat Train."
Father Browne was an amateur photogapher who's uncle, the Bishop of Cloyne, had gotten him a First Class ticket for a three-day voyage on Titanic, knowing of his interest in ships and photography as well. He would have needed permission of the Rector of the seminary, but there was no way the Rector, or his superior the Provincial, was going to say no to the Bishop!
Father Browne's voyage took him from Southampton, to Cherbourg, and then to Queenstown, now Cobh in Ireland. On the trip Father Browne met an American millionaire couple who were quite taken with him, and offered to pay for a round-trip ticket to New York, they enjoyed his company so much. He sent a wireless message to the Provincial asking permission, and by the time he got to Queenstown he had his reply, in five words:
GET OFF THAT SHIP - PROVINCIAL
That was the end of that!
Father Browne wouldn't realise how lucky he was until he was back at the seminary in Dublin and got the word of the Titanic's sinking. His photographs are a remarkable record of the first days of the only voyage of the ship.
Father Browne's story doesn't end there. He was ordained in 1915 and became chaplain to the Irish Guards serving on the Western Front in WW1. He was wounded five times, gassed once, was decorated with the Military Cross (twice), the third-highest British decoration at the time, and also with the French Croix de Guerre. His commanding officer, Colonel (later Field Marshal) Harold Alexander called Father Browne "The bravest man I ever met."
Quite a story huh? And it still doesn't end there, but let's just say Father Browne also became a distinguished Irish photographer as well, taking 42,000 pictures of all subjects during his life. And that Waterloo Station shot's one of them!
He took the only known image of Titanic's Marconi Room. That's Harold Bride at the key:
He also may have invented "the selfie":
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
It wouldn't urprise me if the good Father invented the "selfie," he was quite a remarkable man!
There's a superb photograph of Father Brown in his chaplain's uniform, it's in a book I have called "The Last Days Of The Titanic" but I can't find a grab-able one on-line. He looks like a soldier! I don't know when it was taken but on his left sleeve he has only two of the five wound stripes he'd eventually be authorized to wear.
Maybe Mike can find us one?
Well I'll be... that is amazing! Thanks Wayne and Penny.
You're welcome Vince! I'll tell you, it's all the twists, turns, and peripherals in the Titanic story that makes people like myself and Becky Titanic junkies for life!
There's so many stories to tell and so many lessons that tragic ship has to teach us.
Author Daniel Allan Butler said it best: "Once you let Titanic into your life, she never leaves!"
Chaplain Browne
I wonder if G.K. Chesterton's fictional detective was influenced by the real Father Browne...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_Brown
These started in 1910 which might be before the real Father Browne became known...
Peter
Penny TrainsHe also may have invented "the selfie"
And the "photobomb" at the same time!
I knew Mike would come through!
Father (Chaplain - Major) Browne, the man himself!
A man I'd love to have a chat with over a bottle of "Tullamore Dew" and a box of cigars, or a pipe or two. And don't let that formidable appearance fool you, the troops loved him!
Thanks Mike, and Vince for passing it on!
Another father I know, Fr. Zhivko, is a Serbian Orthodox priest from Macedonia, had an uncle who was a survivor from the Titanic! The uncle made it back to Macedonia, which would have been then either in South Serbia or possibly the Ottoman Empire; this was pre WWI.
Another Father, who was my professor in seminary, was Fr. Vladimir Borichevsky. He had the distinction of being the very first Orthodox chaplain in the US Army during WWII. He was a remarkable man, a walking encyclopedia. We used to try to distract him from our lesson and almost always succeeded, but you still walked out of his class having learned something. He died much too soon in 1990.
I would split some Tullymore Dew with you, but I gave up the pipe and cigars decades ago.
Father Browne
Ah, the brave new world of the WORM drive! Isn't it interesting to see how this promise of the future came true -- in spades! -- and in how many ways even with profiteering and gatekeeping and monetizing that went on with scholarly material and collections since those days this dream of having free access to images has been borne out.
For those who would like improved versions of the first five photos on this thread, herewith:
Father Frank Browne, SJ
Note that Father Browne S. J. used a Leica M3, same as I still use.
Also:
Of course all photos here were long before even the first Leica was produced.
Minningman, what happened to the word "camera" at the bottom of the first page of the scanned text? Is it missing from the document?
Nice work on those photos David!
And it does look like some of those documents are incomplete, but not a catastrophe.
That distinguished looking gentleman on the left of the second photo? For years it was thought to be John Jacob Astor, who was lost on the Titanic, however Astor didn't get on the ship until it stopped in Cherbourg.
Turns out to be a "Close, but no cigar!" situation. The man is an Astor, but a cousin to John Jacob named William Waldorf Astor, husband of Nancy Astor, who moved to Britain in 1890. He was there just to see some friends off on the train.
Father Browne almost threw away that photo of the wireless room since it was a double-exposure, (I wonder what he said when when the shot was devloped? Probably something nasty but not blasphemous!) but when he found out it was the only photo of the wireless room he kept it anyway. Titanic's wireless equipment was the most modern and up-to-date of it's time. It had a guaranteed range of 350 during the day, but could acually reach 500 miles, and a 1,000 mile range at night.
I probably screwed it up...I'll update and fix, just give me a bit of time, swamped here at the moment. Darn!
I found an interesting short history of "The Boat Train" in Titanic's time. Have fun, everyone!
http://www.turniprail.blogspot.com/2012/04/titanic-and-london-and-south-western.html
David and all-- The Father Browne story has been fixed. I initially missed page 2 and submitted page 3 twice. If you go back you can now read it correctly.
I've attepted to correct the double-expsure of the Marconi (Wireless) room. First the photo with only contrast and shading processing, as posted ealier, then an attempt to correct the double-exposure. Your comments are welcome.
daveklepper I've attepted to correct the double-expsure of the Marconi (Wireless) room. First the photo with only contrast and shading processing, as posted ealier, then an attempt to correct the double-exposure. Your comments are welcome.
Great effort! Thanks for that!
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
That really is a great effort! Thanks David!
Here is Father Browne's photo of the Titanic departing from Ireland:
The Book, A Dedicated Life, Father Frank Browne's biography, with photos, is published by Yale Univeristy Press, costs 50 dollars, and is available from Amazon. The authors are the Davison Brothers, who also are responsible for the preservation and cataloging of Father Browne's negatives, and can be reached at info@davisonphoto.com. But for the specific photos on this thread, go to www.titanicphotographs.com and> www.fatherbrowne.com>
deleted
How lucky Dr. Mutch and his family were! There were eight clergymen on the Titanic, three Catholic, five Protestant, and all lost. Of course they were, they were men of God doing what they could to provide comfort and hope to those left on board. Dr. Mutch, and we could assume Father Browne (had he stayed on board) would have made ten lost.
I'm assuming Dr. Mutch and his family would have been traveling Second Class, neither First Class or Third Class (Steerage) were sold out. Titanic had 2,200 passengers on board, the maximum capacity was around 3,000.
Thanks for passing that on David!
2,208 total. 324 in 1st, 284 in 2nd and 709 in 3rd for a total of 1,317 passerngers and 891 crew. That of course doesn't count those who crossed in utero like John Jacob Astor VI and several others born to women survivors less than 9 months after April 14, 1912.
Thanks for the figures Becky! 2,208 souls in total. I'll have to reference my figures more carefully next time.
The scary thing is considering the maximum capacity of the ship it could have been a lot worse.
Flintlock76 it could have been a lot worse.
You said a mouthful brother!
I should have noted that Rich Allman's church is approximately across a street from the ex-PRR Bryn Mawr station on SEPTA's ex-PRR Paoli and now Downingtown and hopefully Lancaster or even Harrisburg line, and has an excellent organ and an outstanding music program including evening concerts. I did at times travel from New York and back specifically for concerts.
David, those must have been some great concerts for you to travel all the way from New York to Bryn Mawr, even if you got two train rides along with them!
What was more fun, the concerts or the train rides?
Hard Question to answer. The music director chose music that was not well known but extremely high quality, usually including combinations of organ and instruments and chorus.
The following email was received yesterday, and when have a few more moments to spare I will go back and make the corrections:
On 3/31/20, Edwin davison <info@davisonphoto.com> wrote:> Many thanks for the information, much of which we would know. If I could ask> for a couple of further corrections, when you mention Father Browne would> you please append SJ after his name to signify the order. Also the web> information for this images is at www.titanicphotographs.com and> www.fatherbrowne.com>> Edwin Davison
The Father Frank Browne S. J. files are even more interesting than the Titanic files! There is no question in my mind that the good Father was a railfan, with a whole section devoted to trains. Here is one picture, not in any way altered by me:
The information given is Engine 406, photographed 1944.
Brian Solomon should be interested in all these photos and probably can provide further identification.
WOW!
Father Browne's rail pictures probably call for a book of their own!
"Railfanning With Father Browne." There you go!
daveklepper The Father Frank Browne (SJ) files are even more interesting than the Titanic files! There is no question in my mind that the good Father was a railfan, with a whole section devoted to trains. Here is one picture, not in any way altered by me: The information given is Engine 406, photographed 1944. Brian Solomon should be interested in all these photos and probably can provide further identification.
The Father Frank Browne (SJ) files are even more interesting than the Titanic files! There is no question in my mind that the good Father was a railfan, with a whole section devoted to trains. Here is one picture, not in any way altered by me:
The 400s were built for the Great Southern and Western Railway and were mainly used on the trains on the main line between Dublin and Cork. 400 was built in 1916 and was based on the English Great Western Railway Star class, a superheated four cylinder simple. Four were built by the GSWR workshops at Inchicore and six by Armsrong Whitworth in England, apart from 400, between 1921 and 1923.
They were a disappointment in their original form and 400, 404 and 408 were scrapped by 1930. The others were rebuilt with two cylinders, 401,402 and 406 having 28" stroke but the others retained the 26" stroke from the four cylinder design. 401 and 406 had Caprotti poppet valves, but 401 was rebuilt with piston valves. A number were rebuilt with larger boilers.
The railways in Ireland were amalgamated in November 1924.
Since the GSWR was the largest system in the merger, GSWR locomotives maintained their numbers on the GSR, and later on the CIE.
Here is 409:
And here's a New Doesel railcar with a leaky roof!
With that first shot it looks like Father Browne was ahead of his time, most railfan photographers back then didn't bother with 3/4 back end shots. This one looks good!
That lady with the umbrella! "Adapt, improvise, and overcome!"
I guessed the lady had the umbrella for shade from the sun coming in on that side. The gentleman in front of her (the operator?) seems to be on the outside of the window.
I like the idea that he was a steam fan and took the picture becauses of a leaky roof. And what you think is the left edge of the a window is clearly a pole within the car body. Look at the fillet ar rhe top of the pole and compare with fillet at the right side of the window, which is indeed the reverse of the real left side of the window.
This was a post-WWII diesel railcar, amd the operatpr would not be outside.
In general. I wish to correct Father Frank Browne JG's images only to correct fading due to age or other specific imperfections like tears or holes or dirt. But there is one exception:
The photo from the website:
The modification I would like:
Can you understand why? I think if the good Father were still alive, I could convince him that a black daytine sky is a real forboding of doom, and I would not like to be resonsible for publishing such an image. But the picture is a great one. Does my modification loose any of its greatness? Comments requested.
daveklepper And here's a New Diesel railcar with a leaky roof!
And here's a New Diesel railcar with a leaky roof!
I think the driver is indeed beyond a window, a glazed partition between the cab and the first class passenger compartment.
The railcar in question is:
These appear to be the CIE version of the AEC railcars built for the Great Northern Railway of Ireland shortly after WWII. A feature of the GNRI cars was the glazed partition at the cab end, which provided a view ahead at the leading end and an observation saloon at the rear. These were interesting mechanically, with the diesel engines and transmissions mounted on each side, one side driving the forward truck and the other side the rear truck. The final drives were like those on a Shay locomotive but only the two inner axles were driven. Two power cars could haul two trailer cars.
And I favour the sunshade theory of the umbrella.
I stand corrected. Thank you. Is your photo of the two cars also the one in Father Frank Browne SJ Collection? Or did you obtain it elsewhere and where? And I gather the diesel was a flat design under the floor?
I should add, however, that I have never seen an umbrella opened in a train or transit vehicle for use as a sunshade.
I have seen one opened in a bus once and in a railroad coach once. But I have to admit it was not rain through a leaky roof in either case but a leaky air-conditioning system.
daveklepperAnd I gather the diesel was a flat design under the floor?
There is actually one of those 'how to...' videos from the Fifties on YouTube that tells how to start and run early versions of these railcars; it contains a number of detail views of the powerplants and gearboxes as installed.
Here's the introduction:
Note that on this type (I believe these were Derby lightweights), the engines are 'bus engines' but run flat (as on a number of American buses, and on RDCs). This is different from a 'pancake' or horizontally-opposed 'boxer' engine design. Note the "BUT" on the control gear; this was a joint venture between AEG and Leyland.
Here's the section dealing with faults that shows what to do with some of the 'very expensive' equipment under the car...
Note the 'other type' of railcar at about 34:00 - is this a Metropolitan-Cammell?
daveklepper I stand corrected. Thank you. Is your photo of the two cars also the one in Father Frank Browne SJ Collection? Or did you obtain it elsewhere and where? And I gather the diesel was a flat design under the floor?
daveklepper In general. I wish to correct Father Frank Browne JG's images only to correct fading due to age or other specific imperfections like tears or holes or dirt. But there is one exception: The photo from the website: The modification I would like: Can you understand why? I think if the good Father were still alive, I could convince him that a black daytine sky is a real forboding of doom, and I would not like to be resonsible for publishing such an image. But the picture is a great one. Does my modification loose any of its greatness? Comments requested.
M636CNo, I believe the diesel engines were upright. They were mounted under the floor but at the outer edge of the floor just inboard of the body side. I think they were standard AEC Bus engines of 9.6 litres and 125 HP.
These were MEDs, right? If I remember correctly these were re-engined to have the two AEG engines and this might explain why they would be upright and not flat. There is also a later class (from 1957) that had two AEG (and later slightly more powerful Rolls-Royce) engines.
This is tough, I'm not sure what to think, I may do a bit of thinking out loud, so bear with me.
Photo One, the more "contrasty" of the two. The first things my eyes are drawn to are the clouds, with the dark sky they really "pop" out at you. Photo Two, my eyes are drawn to the locomotive, everything else is secondary.
As a railfan I should choose #2, since I could care less about clouds. But #1's a bit more "artsy," for lack of a better term.
Honestly I like them both! I'd have to flip a coin if I had to choose one!
I do wonder what Father Brown used when he took the shot. Panchromatic or orthochromatic film? They were both available at the time. A yellow or red filter, or just a plain lens? Film and lens options in black and white photography will affect the finished product.
Anyway, thanks for that color shot M636C, that's a beautiful engine!
Overmod M636C No, I believe the diesel engines were upright. They were mounted under the floor but at the outer edge of the floor just inboard of the body side. I think they were standard AEC Bus engines of 9.6 litres and 125 HP.
M636C No, I believe the diesel engines were upright. They were mounted under the floor but at the outer edge of the floor just inboard of the body side. I think they were standard AEC Bus engines of 9.6 litres and 125 HP.
M636C AEG is a German electrical company that translates as "General Electric Company" although it was not associated with GE.
Similar to how ASEA (now the "A" in ABB) translates into General Swedish Electric Company, though the Swedish word for Company is usually abreviated as "AB".
Flintlock, thanks for responding and your comments. Pretty certain Father Browne, SJ, used Plus-X Panchromatic or its equivalent with a red filter.
I would like to see Father Frank Browne SJ'a trains photos presented in an orderly manner in a printable pdf, much as what we download for free on this website and what I have done for distribution to friends and those requesting from Jack May's many trip reports. Brian Solomon has the knowledge and skill to do this by himself.
If I were to do it, I'd need a collaborator (or collaborators) to put the pix in logical order, show the location each photo on a map of the oveall Irish railway system(s) and add any necessary comment to the good father's comment for each photograph.
Anyone wanting one or more of the Jack May trip pdfs can request at
daveklepper@yahoo.com
If you want all, it may take several days. Otherwise, Eastern Eureope? UK? USA Streetcar?
daveklepperI would like to see Father Frank Browne SJ'a trains photos presented in an orderly manner in a printable PDF ...
I'm ASSuming (as you were the one forwarding the e-mail) that you have secured the necessary full written permissions from Davison for rights and use of the material. It seems to me that they would be the appropriate source both to put together and to host the resulting files.
The work then becomes ordering the pictures to go in the 'collections' in order referenced by their existing site URLs -- and providing any 'corrected' versions of the images to the Davison site webmasters or whoever for inclusion. Then sending appropriately indexed files with the updated information to be appended via metadata... with their understanding on how to format it, use it, and allocate any rights to the associated novel intellectual-property content.
Overmod daveklepper I would like to see Father Frank Browne SJ'a trains photos presented in an orderly manner in a printable PDF ... I'm ASSuming (as you were the one forwarding the e-mail) that you have secured the necessary full written permissions from Davison for rights and use of the material. It seems to me that they would be the appropriate source both to put together and to host the resulting files. The work then becomes ordering the pictures to go in the 'collections' in order referenced by their existing site URLs -- and providing any 'corrected' versions of the images to the Davison site webmasters or whoever for inclusion. Then sending appropriately indexed files with the updated information to be appended via metadata... with their understanding on how to format it, use it, and allocate any rights to the associated novel intellectual-property content.
daveklepper I would like to see Father Frank Browne SJ'a trains photos presented in an orderly manner in a printable PDF ...
Would all of those permissions be required for what is essentially private non commercial use?
More significantly, there appear to be numerous errors in the captions as reproduced on the website. The photo of the 4-4-0 I identified as an NCC U2 class (an inside cylinder 4-4-0) was identified as a GSR 400 series, (an outside cylinder 4-6-0). This leads me to believe that at least some of the captions were written after the photos were recovered, and not by the photographer.
All the above makes sense. Possibly the best course is simply to suggest to the Davison Brothers that the book would be a winner and that others on this Forum and I would be happy to help in any way, including some possible corrections.
Another idea: You who have copied some of the pictures into your hard-drive and/or USB device, tell us which one or two pictures mean most to you and why and post them on this thread. Eventually, there will me material for book that will go beyond just the pictures. Some current views of the locations might also be of great interest.
Here are two of my favorites, the top the Dublin - Cork train, the bottom the "EnterpriseP Dublin - Belfast - Cork, Irish steam expresses.
daveklepper Here are two of my favorites, the bottom the "Enterprise" Dublin - Belfast, Irish steam expresses.
Here are two of my favorites, the bottom the "Enterprise" Dublin - Belfast, Irish steam expresses.
While the present day Enterprise runs between Belfast and Dublin, in the 1950s it ran right through from Belfast to Cork via Dublin, as indicated by the curved nameplate on the locomotive smokebox.
The locomotive, CIE 402 was generally recognised as the best of its class, hence it was used on the premier train of the day. It had 28" stroke cylinders, while most of the conversions from four cylinders retained the original 26" stroke.
The train was worked from Belfast to Dublin by the large 4-4-0s of the Great Northern Railway of Ireland, so this photo is between Dublin and Cork in the 1950s.
So the train ran the full length of Ireland from Belfast in Northern Ireland to Cork in the south of the Republic. Cork was where the Titanic called in to drop Father Browne off.
I don't think I've ever seen the nameplate for the Northbound train which presumably read "Cork-Dublin-Belfast". The plates were carried on both the CIE and GNRI locomotives.
This train was converted to diesel operation in the late 1950s using the AEC railcars of the GNRI, generally similar to the CIE cars illustrated earlier in this thread, with a trailer buffet car for refreshments.
Thanks, and please post some pistures important to you, your own or those of Father Frank Browne SJ. Thanks.
When I first posted the Enterprise photo, I noticed a small tear in the upper right corner that was disfiguring. With lack of time, I '''corrrected" by cropping the top a tiny bit. I've gone back and repaired the tear on the original and corrected the first posting and repeating that here. Peter may wish to use the corrected correction also.
Nice cropping job David!
It's also pretty apparant that Father Browne wasn't bothered by trackside poles or overhead wires, the things that used to drive American railfan photographers nuts.
In the American rail scene today those poles and wires are as much a part of the past as steam engines themselves.
That photo conjures up a lot of impressions. A warm summer day. The countryside. Lazy clouds. Just bowling along as fast or as slow as steam wants to carry you.
Flintlock76It's also pretty apparant that Father Browne wasn't bothered by trackside poles or overhead wires...
Those poles with so many cross arms is the second most interesting subject in the photo.
Here is a mosr unusual picture, and I will leave it to Peter to tell us all about it:
That is unusual. I magnified the picture until I started losing resolution and I'm not sure what that structure is. It's either a bridge built like nobodys business or a run-through engine servicing facility.
A covered bridge
daveklepper ... a most unusual picture, and I will leave it to Peter to tell us all about it:
Reminded me rather promptly of this:
One of the more spectacular ideas in early railroad engineering ... until you have to run locomotives that don't "consume their own smoke". Then the tubes get progressively latticed out...
A covered bridge! I'll bet it's still there!
daveklepper Here is a most unusual picture, and I will leave it to Peter to tell us all about it:
Here is a most unusual picture, and I will leave it to Peter to tell us all about it:
The Boyne Viaduct:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyne_Viaduct
Years ago I was travelling on a Eurailpass which didn't apply in Northern Ireland so I got off The Enterprise in Drogheda and caught the next train back. It was a cold wet winter day but I could see the bridge from the station.
Thanks! And a recent posting on the Brooklyn Elevated thread refers to the Titanic - Ciry of New York (the ship) "confrontation" at Souhhampton.
SS New York and the Titanic
"It Was Sad When That Great Ship Went Down."
I detect the fine hand of Mike again!
Strange, but no-one has any idea of who wrote that Titanic song, it just seemed to appear out of nowhere within weeks of the disaster. Children were heard singing it on the streets, and the reaction was "How did kids come up with something like that?"
Kind of like " The Worms Crawl In, The Worms Crawl Out" song, but we should save that one for Halloween!
Oh, and the liner Teutonic mentioned in Lawrence Beesley's account of the near collision? That's the ship John Phillip Sousa was returning from Europe on when he composed "The Stars And Stripes Forever!" Sousa said the march just popped into his head, he set it to paper, and never changed a note afterward.
But we'll save that one for Independence Day!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQYBXPb74ok
"Down With The Old Canoe." I've heard of it, but never heard it before.
Thanks Vince!
April 14-15, 1912. "A Night To Remember." 108 years ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kq_MDc35pWg
And RIP, Honor Blackman.
Unsolicited, Steve Sattler sent me a message on the Jewish angle
of the Titanic disaster, which may be of interest to most readers of
this thread. I've excerpted what may be most interesting, and
those wishing the complete message can contact Steve at
sattler31@gmail.com.
From 1880 -1920, some 3 mill. Russian Jews fled the Russian region,
so it is not surprising that there were many Jews on the Titanic, most
of them in steerage. The Titanic set sail after Pesach 1912. The Hebrew
Immigration Aid Society records show that only 27 Jews/ board survived,
all of whom were taken from the rescue ships to a Sheltering Home in NY.
The NY Jewish community viewed the sinking of the Titanic as a great
tragedy, & hundreds/ American synagogues held services in memory/ victims.
Songwriters wrote original pieces honoring the dead; among them was
Yiddish lyricist Solomon Small, who wrote Der Nasser Kever (“The Watery
Grave”). The famous Cantor Yossele Rosenblatt, who recorded El Malei
Rachamim in memory of the lost - donated the $150,000 -sales of the
album to help support the survivors.
THE TITANIC DISASTER:- "The survivors say that it was common
to inform the passengers that the poor could be considered lost while
the first rescue boat filled with people from those found close to her.
The screaming surrounded the entire ship, & the women & children raised
a howl: & then the captain appeared and said: "women and children first!"
And what is worthy of note is that everyone inside the boat immediately
obeyed the order &, with no refusal,
Initially, the kosher dishes & utensils were old tableware salvaged specifically
for White Star kosher service but, after WWI, kosher tableware was specially
made to cater to the growing numbers of Jewish passengers. However, no
kosher dishes or cutlery have ever been recovered from the sinking of the
Titanic, though a few pieces from the Olympic do exist. .
To date, no kosher-only menu specific to the Titanic has ever been found,
though the experts on the subject argue that they must surely have existed
because there do exist exceedingly rare copies of standard 1913 White Star
third-class menus that declare “Kosher Meat supplied & Cooked for Jewish
Passengers as desired.”
The final Titanic lunch menu, from April 14, 1912, was sold at auction
in 2015 for $88,000. The salvaged menu once belonged Abraham Lincoln Salomon (1868-1959), a Jewish passenger & stationery dealer who traveled
to Europe/ business trip accompanied by his daughter, though he alone
booked 1st-class passage to return to NY on the doomed vessel.
He ultimately escaped death by boarding the infamous Lifeboat No. 1
which, though it had a 40/ capacity, nonetheless took off from the sinking
ship carrying only 12 people, including 7 crewmen, who assuredly did not
“go down with the ship.”
2018:- On August 23, a pocket watch that belonged to Sinai Kantor,
a Jewish Russian immigrant who died aboard the Titanic, & featured
Hebrew letters on its face & Moses holding the 10 Commandments on/
back, sold at auction for $57,500. His wife Miriam was one of the few
Jewish survivors.
Is there some reason that over and over and over again we get these long posts that don't wrap correctly in the forum software and are fundamentally unreadable, even though of great length?
How hard can it be just to cut and paste the text unformatted in the window, enclosing what has been snipped from an e-mail or other communication using the quote function or quote tags? I certainly can't recover a readable version by any means available to me, thanks to poor programming choices at Kalmbach that let me extend the window dramatically, but not the column of actual content visible in it...
Many of Dave Klepper posts are frequently cut off along the right side.
My long post of Tues Apr 14 @ 1:59 am is entirely within and readable on both my iPad and iPhone .
Very interesting read of the Jews on the Titanic. Thanks David!
I've got a question. Would the kosher dishes and utensils be specifically so marked? The reason I'm asking is when the White Star Line purchased dishes, bowls, utensils, and so forth they bought them en masse for the whole shipping line, with no specific markings other than "White Star Line."
This has been a caveat emptor for Titanic fans for years. The only thing on the Titanic that had the ship's name on it was the ship itself, the exception being ephemera like menus. So if you see a teacup that has "RMS Titanic" on it, watch out!
Stuff happens.
Wayne is " The Worms Crawl In, The Worms Crawl Out" song you mention the one that begins "Did you ever think as the hearse rolls by...."? I remember two versions of the ending; both are gruesome.
Johnny
That's the one Johnny, and you're not a bona-fide kid if you don't know some version of it! Kids DO love a good gross-out, and always have. I learned it when I was a kid, so did Lady Firestorm.
No-one's sure where that one comes from either. American aviators during the First World War used to sing it together*, real typical military gallows humor there, but it's believed the song is considerably older, at least to the late 19th Century.
Again, I'll save a dissertation on this for Halloween, although anyone can get the story using "The Google Machine."
Wayne
* The music and lyrics were in a book of American soldier songs I found in a used bookstore called "Sound Off!," published in 1939, and the book mentioned its popularity with aviators. I almost split a gut laughing when I saw it! "Hey! I KNOW this one!"
In the book it's titled "The Big Grey Hearse."
"The big grey hearse goes rolling by, you don't know whether to laugh or cry.
'Cause you know one day it'll get you too, and it's very next load may consist of you!"
The error was inadvertant. I usually have taken great pains to see that everything fits, but this morning I was distracted from examining the finished post by an important matter, and now I will use the error button to return and corrrect the posting, A thousand apologies.
But, often I cannot tell how it will fit until I see the actual posting. So the posting will run off the right when first posted, but return one hour later, and you wil find the total readable. I will have done the editing in the interim. This is particularly true of New York MTA and SEPTA press releases.
I have no additional knowlege about Titanic or White Star dishes. Cannot answer Flinktlock's question.
Turning back to Father Frank Browne SJ's photows, the website caption refers to this as an Engineering Department inspection vehicle. Does Peter have more information?
Doesn't that look cool?
I don't see any evidence of a propulsion system though, I wonder if it was pushed or towed?
You know, it kind of reminds me of an antique hot dog wagon!
Wayne, the one I know begins, "Did you ever wonder, as the hearse goes by, that one these days you will surely die?" Different words, but the sentiment is the same.
Deggesty Wayne, the one I know begins, "Did you ever wonder, as the hearse goes by, that one these days you will surely die?" Different words, but the sentiment is the same.
No surprise Johnny, there's lots of variations out there, probably depends on what part of the country you're from.
Well here's a good one!
Grave”).
Flintlock76I wonder if it was pushed or towed?
I would guess pushed based on the seating, but pushed by what? Compared with the buffer height of the cars around it, and the lack of them on the car in question, I would doubt a locomotive would have been used. Can we date it? Maybe a small gas engine speeder could push or pull it?
I'm still puzzling over that inspection car. Maybe there's a small gasolene engine in there some place where we can't see it?
Since this is Ireland it definately wouldn't be used as a hot-dog stand. Maybe a fish n' chips stand?
It's a beautiful thing, at any rate!
A sad irony to that piece by Elbert Hubbard, "The Titanic." Hubbard himself was lost three years later in the sinking of the Lusitania.
Quite a popular writer in his time, Elber Hubbard was also the author of "A Message To Garcia."
Timeless words o' wisdom, and here it is.
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.31822042776955&view=1up&seq=1
Is that a crank by the man's left knee. Has headlight.
Thank You.
See the Railway Times, Feb 24 1906?
Miningman, this was also the Cantor that charted a special PRR train, I think Jersey City - Baltimore, that set the speed record on the NEC up to the time of the Lindberg newsreel special, both with E-6 Atlantics, both in the Westing - Kalmbach book Apex of the Atlantics, so he could give an evening concert in both New York City and Baltimore. I do not have the Westing book at hand at the moment and someone may wish to check the exact facts,
Also, one of the important people in the history of public medicine in Israel was Nathan Strauss (after whom Netanya was named). He was due to sail on the Titanic, with his brother Isidore andsister-in-law, but was delayed and missed the boat. Isidore and his wifeperished, and Nathan saw that as a Divine sign that he had been saved for apurpose. He therefore devoted most of his time and money to Public Health.Anyhow, here is a You Tube of Yossele.https://youtu.be/JEpadnRY4CU
There is also an important, but narrow, street in Jerusalem named for Nathan Strauss, used by the 22, 25, 34, 35, and 45 bus lines for all or most of its length, and 71-75, and the 19A in one direction, for one block, making it the very most congested street in Jerusalem. Nothing but taxis and buses during rush hours and mid-day. Was even more congested before the light rail opened.
NDG, I think you nailed it and solved the mystery, there must be a gasolene engine in there.
Well done!
Great YouTube clip David!
When the Titanic sank Tin Pan Alley went into overdrive putting out memorial songs, most (if not all) pretty forgettable, but Cantor Rosenblatt's tribute is just beautiful! I don't understand a word he's singing, but I don't have to, and that says something. What a beautiful voice he had!
I looked up Nathan Straus. What a man, he did an awful lot of good!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Straus
Here is another of my favorite Father Frank Browne S. J. pictures. Probably Peter can supply details:
daveklepper Here is another of my favorite Father Frank Browne S. J. pictures. Poddibly Peter can supply details:
Here is another of my favorite Father Frank Browne S. J. pictures. Poddibly Peter can supply details:
Also, looking at what coupling/uncoupling entailed I wonder: did those who did the work duck under or climb/leap over the buffers?
DeggestyAlso, looking at what coupling/uncoupling entailed I wonder: did those who did the work duck under or climb/leap over the buffers?
In many of the movies on British practice, I see them scrambling underneath (in part facilitated by having to tinker with the brake pipes too).
In passenger work in Germany/Austria and Switzerland, in the mid-Seventies, I remember them generally reaching over and down, never getting to where an inadvertent car movement would find any part of their body 'cuttable' by wheel contact...
The one on the right looks like a childs storybook engine, doesn't it?
It appears the smokebox has double-doors.
daveklepper Here is another of my favorite Father Frank Browne S. J. pictures. Probably Peter can supply details:
I've been a bit slow getting to this....
The locomotive on the left is GSR 461, an inside cylinder 2-6-0 built for the Dublin and South Eastern Railway by Beyer Peacock in 1922. This locomotive is now preserved by the Railway Preservation Society of Ireland. A summary of locomotive classes in 1948 described the two locomotives in the class as "One of the best Goods on the System". Inside cylinder 2-6-0s are unusual but are represented by "James" in the "Thomas the Tank Engine" books.
The locomotive on the right is a former Great Southern and Western Class 101 0-6-0 which dates back to 1867, and some of these were built by Beyer Peacock also. It appears to have been rebuilt with a 4'4" diameter boiler, but retains the original design of smokebox with a backward sloping front and two smokebox doors. The 1948 summary said: "The general purpose small Goods engine can work over most lines."
Thanks, Peter!
Who would like to discuss differences and similarities between classic Irish and North American interlodking installations?
daveklepperWho would like to discuss differences and similarities between classic Irish and North American interlocking installations?
I think a better place to start might be between British and American practice, followed by detail differences between contemporary British and American plants of this era. This is not an area where I have more than 'reading' expertise, so will leave it to others with 'the Knowledge' and the proper enthusiasm.
It had not occurred to me that those little patent plates were actually pedals to assist returning the levers to locking position.
The term 'interlocking' itself refers to Saxby and Farmer-type arrangements, where only full combinations of route could be selected with the switch levers and others were 'locked out'. This was invented just after the American Civil War, and (as usual, I supposed, where these things are concerned) there is some question about whether very early American interlocking practice was cribbed from the English or parallel-developed. These things remain one of the great innovations of the Victorian era, really as technologically advanced in anything in security lock practice or even horology of that period; I have the same trouble trying to figure out how complex plants are 'programmed' as I do trying to reverse-engineer something like an IBM Composer to fix and adjust it without a manual. In other words: lots.
Note the typically British electric line-occupancy indicator, about which there are many discussions online -- both in its principles and in its practical use. I believe the inimitable Robinson developed devices like this in America, by the 1870s, but they had comparatively little early use (you would not believe some of the relevant battery chemistries!) I think in part due to the relatively late invention of the dynamo as a practical source of DC power at the required combination of voltage and amperage to make electrical signaling fully 'practical'.
Seem to have lost the caption. Where is this signal bridge?
I don't know myself, but wow, it looks like a signal bridge on steroids!
Aye chihuahua! I pity the operator!
I was waiting for people more familiar with UK practice to flag the location -- I'd lay money on Peter Clark knowing not only the railroad and place but the era down to a few years' spread, the type of equipment, etc.
For some reason this makes me think of Reading. (the one in England).
Overmod I was waiting for people more familiar with UK practice to flag the location -- I'd lay money on Peter Clark knowing not only the railroad and place but the era down to a few years' spread, the type of equipment, etc. For some reason this makes me think of Reading. (the one in England).
I think that view is approaching Dublin Heuston (orignally called Kingsbridge).
The elevated roadway on the right and the general track layout looks right.
The carriage doesn't look like one of any of the major British railways. In fact, it looks like a vehicle belonging to the Great Northern Railway of Ireland. A number of vehicles with that style of panelling and flat or nearly flat sides were built during the very early years of the 20th Century. These had small raised class indicator plates just above the windows in the doors and these appear in the photo.
Against this is the fact that GNR(I) trains normally terminated at Dublin Connolly north of the river but there were connecting lines and through trains were run as far as Cork.
But that's the best I can do.
It's been found!
Crewe Gantry, 1930 http://www.fatherbrowne.com/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crewe
Crewe in England. Interesting. There's a Crewe here in Virginia, and it's a crew change point on the Norfolk-Southern line to Danville.
Crewe must be a good name for railroad towns!
But is that gantry in the part of Crewe that is not Crewe, or is in in the not-Crewe that is Crewe?
I just knew this would start a riot.
Glad to use the Dublin-Heuston caotion, and thank you!
Flintlock76 Crewe in England. Interesting. There's a Crewe here in Virginia, and it's a crew change point on the Norfolk-Southern line to Danville. Crewe must be a good name for railroad towns!
Deggesty Flintlock76 Crewe in England. Interesting. There's a Crewe here in Virginia, and it's a crew change point on the Norfolk-Southern line to Danville. Crewe must be a good name for railroad towns! Wayne, Crewe is on what was the N&W's main line; you go west from there, and you go through Farmville; you go east, and you go by Petersburg. what have you been drinking?.
Wayne, Crewe is on what was the N&W's main line; you go west from there, and you go through Farmville; you go east, and you go by Petersburg. what have you been drinking?.
Well last night only Coca-Cola, you know, "Southern Holy Water?"
I just dug out my ancient old (1991) Virginia railfan book and you're absolutely right Johnny, Crewe is on the old N&W (now NS) mainline from Norfolk to Roanoke. However the book does call it a "crewe" change point.
If you work for NS and you're part of the crewe I guess that's what you dew.
Are you sure that it wasn't Mexican holy water from Jalisco state?
MiningmanI just knew this would start a riot.
And if it's around Fat Tuesday, you can be a member of a 'Krewe'.
York1 John
CSSHEGEWISCH Are you sure that it wasn't Mexican holy water from Jalisco state?
I'm sure. Definately from Hot-Lanta!
CSSHEGEWISCHAre you sure that it wasn't Mexican holy water from Jalisco state?
They do that differently now.
https://www.cbs17.com/news/check-this-out/priest-goes-viral-after-picture-shows-him-using-squirt-gun-filled-with-holy-water/
We are starting to confuse 'holy water' with 'water of life' with 'divine elixir'. That's gonna get us in trouble.
Haven't we established that it is Dublin-Heuston and not Crewe? Or did I miss somthingt
The Leica M3 shown in the selfie and regularly used by Father Frank Browne, SJ, was introduced by Leitz in 1954, and is the camera I regularly use.
Father Frank Browne, SJ, past on in 1960 at age 80.
I've been cutting my own hair. When the Coronavirus threat is ended, and I pay to have a haircut, should I take a selfie with my Leice M3 and have it posted?
Why ever not? There's certainly historic precedent for it!
OK Will do. May have to wait a while.
daveklepper Haven't we established that it is Dublin-Heuston and not Crewe? Or did I miss somthingt
Firstly, I should apologise for taking so long to answer this. I am having an apartment renovated, and I have been tied up with contractors for much of my time.
I have been as confused as anybody.
However, when I looked at an enlargement of the photo in question, there was an overhead bridge over the station just at the (North) end of the overall roof. Having checked as much as I could, I haven't found any evidence of an overhead bridge at Dublin Heuston station at any time.
Also, in the enlargement it became clear that there was no road behind the retaining wall to the right of the photo.
So, on reflection, despite the view looking nothing like Crewe today, it seems likely that the photo was indeed Crewe. There are other relevant comments in my earlier post.
With a new thread devoted to Irish Railways, I'm booting up this thread to make some fine photos easily available and a liמk to more.
I'm glad you booted up the thread David, it's a blast from the past and I'd forgotten how much fun it was!
Possibly you have read reports about the danger to those exploring the submerged Titanic. Here is an angle, edited and compressed from today's Jerusalem Post, that may be of interest. Further info is on the website www,jpost.com.
Much has been made here in Memphis of the Isidor Straus history -- including the heroism they showed.
I still can't understand how someone with a MAE degree from Princeton didn't understand that carbon-fiber composite is not stable in compression as it is in tension (in wound pressure tanks and the like).
daveklepperWendy Rush a descendant of two first-class passengers aboard the Titanic when it sank in 1912 after hitting an iceberg, the New York Times said on Wednesday. The tragic tale of wealthy Isidor Straus, co-owner of Macy's department store and his wife Ida, is told in James Cameron's movie "Titanic." Wendy Rush is their great-great-granddaughter
What a cruel irony.
For those interested, here's a 34 minute video about the OceanGate's Titan and it's the best report on this tragedy I've seen, well worth watching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O5F4ZVlIac&t=14s
This is from the host's YouTube channel called "Oceanliner Designs," a VERY well done channel a quite interesting. The host, Mike Brady, is very personable as well. Here at the "Fortress Flintlock" we call him "That nice young Mr. Ocean Liner!"
And note, Mike has the class and tradition of wearing a black tie as a sign of mourning. I thought I was the last one to do that.
OvermodI still can't understand how someone with a MAE degree from Princeton didn't understand that carbon-fiber composite is not stable in compression as it is in tension (in wound pressure tanks and the like).
"Outside the box" thinking I suppose. Or something.
There's nothing wrong with thinking outside the box as long as you remember the box is there for a reason. Probably a very good reason.
As Steve Slaby, my drafting professor at Princeton, would say: You don't push on a rope no matter how cleverly it's embedded.
(He's also the one who snarled about 'postwar technology' and got me using the expression...)
In "Secrets of the Titanic", the National Geographic Special covering Dr. Ballard's explorations, they describe what was necessary to reach the wreck: "a sealed six foot titanium sphere crammed with equipment and three uncomfortable humans.". Why anyone would think a non spherical design would be ok I can't guess.
Same me, different spelling!
pennytrainsWhy anyone would think a non spherical design would be ok I can't guess.
I can't figure out that one either, the technology's been around for over 60 years, even longer if you conside the Bathysphere, and the reason it's still used is because it works.
I'm no engineer by any means but even I know a cylinder's not going to withstand as much outside pressure as a sphere will.
Flintlock76 pennytrains Why anyone would think a non spherical design would be ok I can't guess. I can't figure out that one either, the technology's been around for over 60 years, even longer if you conside the Bathysphere, and the reason it's still used is because it works. I'm no engineer by any means but even I know a cylinder's not going to withstand as much outside pressure as a sphere will.
pennytrains Why anyone would think a non spherical design would be ok I can't guess.
How big does the sphere have to be to permit FOUR or more PAYING 'passengers'?
I am not an engineer either - however, from my racing experience I have learned a 'little' about carbon-fiber construction. What I saw of Titan's construction was the carbon-fiber we being applied in a continuous fashion around the form for the passenger compartment. The little I know is that the carbon-fiber hast to be laid in multiple intersecting angles to develop strength, if what is being constructed is expected to be strong. How you accomplish that on a cylinder I will leave to legions of engineers that know much more than I do.
If we always do what we have done in the past - we will never get beyond where we were in the past. Only 120 years ago, mankind's feet were firmly planted on the ground - then came the Wright Brothers and Kitty Hawk, NC to challenge that concept.
The one thing that cannt be said about the Oceanscape owner - he put his money and mouth and body at risk in his beliefs. He paid the price for his failures.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I agree, but from what I've heard the sub wasn't rated for that kind of depth.
I saw pictures of some of the larger pieces of the Titan that have recovered. The hemispherical ends appear to be pretty much intact, though the viewport on the front seems to be missing. Obvious take-away was catastrophic failure of the carbon fiber cylindrical section, which looks to have sheared any attachment with the carbon fiber cylinder.
I've come across numerous comments about not expecting much compressive strength from carbon fiber composites.
In the early streamliner era, there were a number passenger trains built with all-aluminum construction, but the requirement for yield strength to be 80% or less of ultimate tensile strength led to to steel underframes. Carbon fiber composites are even more brittle than aluminum.
BaltACDIf we always do what we have done in the past - we will never get beyond where we were in the past. Only 120 years ago, mankind's feet were firmly planted on the ground - then came the Wright Brothers and Kitty Hawk, NC to challenge that concept.
Quite true, but remember the Wrights didn't operate in a vacuum, they made use of knowledge of experiments in fixed wing flight going back to the mid-19th Century like the works of Henson and Stringfellow, and then the glider experiments of Otto Lilienthal and Samuel Langley in the 1890s. Others in Europe were following the same path but the Wrights got there first. The Wrights had a good idea of what worked and what didn't work and built on that.
Remember what I said about "The Box."
Erik_MagIn the early streamliner era, there were a number passenger trains built with all-aluminum construction, but the requirement for yield strength to be 80% or less of ultimate tensile strength led to to steel underframes.
Timz: The trucks and wheels were typically steel, but several of the early aluminum passenger cars did have aluminum underframes.
Balt: Carbon fiber solid rocket motor casings are usually filament wound with the filaments wound at an angle with the circumference of the motor casing. IIRC, the winding is done in such a way that each layer is wound at the opposite angle of the layer below it. Since the motors have end caps, there is a longitudinal stress and well as a hoop stress placed on the case wall.
One possible no-no occurred to me about the Titan: The overall elastic modulus of the cylinder may have been different then the modulus of the end caps. This would translate the cylinder and endcaps shrinking differently and thus putting a lot of shear stress on the joint between the cylinder and the caps, which might exlain I don't recall seeing any part of the composite cylinder attached to the front hemisphere.
Flintlock76The Wrights had a good idea of what worked and what didn't work and built on that.
And I've heard it said that the Wright's should be more remembered for making flying a verb. They really went a lot further than anyone before in the science of aircraft control. That's why our Ohio license plates say "Birthplace of Aviation" rather than "First in Flight".
pennytrainsThat's why our Ohio license plates say "Birthplace of Aviation" rather than "First in Flight".
And rightly so, North Carolina is where the Wright flew em' but Ohio is where they built 'em.
And as far as controllability is concerned when Wilbur Wright demontrated a Wright airplane in France to their pioneer aviators one turned to another and said "Monsieur Wright has sent us all back to school!"
It has been said the picture of good Father in the barber chair taking his picture was the very first selfee.
I will have to check, but I think American Milemaster was built with aluminum truck frames. They were quickly replaced and, as with front-feed coal stokers, swept as quickly and mercifully from popular railroad history as possible.
Guided by some of the research into duralumins in the WWI era, PRR made and tested a set of aluminum side rods (!) on an I1s Decapod (!!) I have only ever seen pictures of these under test with a great many strain gages across the web of the main. Let's say I'm not terribly surprised this experiment 'failed to thrive'...
Well this is surprising, someone's come up with a traditional sea chantey concerning the Ocean Gate sub disaster.
I don't know what to think about it. What does everyone else think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v11-ID5vq-k
Flintlock76I don't know what to think about it. What does everyone else think?
I couldn't make it past one verse. Hearing the deep breaths on the microphone before each line is horrible. I don't think the guy has the pipes for it.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
OvermodI will have to check, but I think American Milemaster was built with aluminum truck frames. They were quickly replaced and, as with front-feed coal stokers, swept as quickly and mercifully from popular railroad history as possible.
American Milemaster and duplicate Muskingum River were built with GSC steel trucks. The 1933 "George M Pullman" was definitely built with four wheel aluminum trucks, replaced by six wheel steel trucks.
Seems a tad mean spirited to me. It has a classic feel but it's right up there with the ballad of Casey Jones and Be British as far as being a popular tune a century after the event is concerned. They ain't no Gordon Lightfoot.
Going back to the Titanic, a start-up Israeli company is now astarting to manufacture a wrist bracelet that might have saved lives in both the Titanic and Titan tragedies.
And regarding water displacement, for those that miss a deleted thread, if you wear this bracelet, possibly you are zssured of continurd lifem regardless of swimming skills or depth of water, should you attemp to walk on water.
And the device may be standard for ocean ships and gtransp-ocean air travel.
The device might help someone to float, but they must be rescued before hypothermia sets in. I doubt it would have helped most Titanic victims.
Maybe if one had four, one on each limb (wrists and ankles), one could walk on water?
daveklepper Maybe if one had four, one on each limb (wrists and ankles), one could walk on water?
Wonder how easy it would be to avoid ending up with your wrists and ankles on the surface and the rest of you beneath them.
CS: Apologies. Respect your religious feelings.
Not about to try the experiment.
In order to work to avoid water hypothermia, the four bracelets would have to collectively displace more than the mass of the person concerned. That would make them, to put it lightly, unwieldy, and moreover it would be highly metastable, so a 'user' would have to constantly balance to keep themselves above water -- with their hands and feet in 29-degree constant immersion. (Of course they would have likely become wholly drenched jumping from the ship, so are now exposed to ambient air with a huge wetted surface area -- not likely to avoid hypothermia at least to the extent of making them unable to keep up the balancing act.
Recovery into a boat would be difficult with all the bulky floats tightly wrapped to wrists and ankles.
The premise of the Israeli invention is not to 'float' people above the water, but to keep them with their heads upright with just enough buoyancy to ensure their noses and mouths remain above water. If they are unconscious the solution won't help them much, because their arms will float over their heads if they swallow or inhale even a small amount of water or their clothes become waterlogged.
That makes sense, Thanks.
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